Will a "safety" dialogue track via XLR cable splitter degrade audio quality?

[Ariaelf]

"Operating a boom is not a terribly difficult skill to learn."
> Thanks, that's good to know and will save me lots of money. Can you enlighten others by posting it over at the JW sound group forum, your wisdom would certainly be appreciated. http://jwsoundgroup.net )

This exchange rather reminds me of the actors who get pissy the moment anyone who hasn't "graduated RADA" and "payed Hamlet" gets to speak a single line in a film.

Heaven forbid anyone with a good attitude that's willing to learn gets a chance to do the job.

 

[Ariaelf]

Not all of us are asking to be hired. But people who do this for a living tend to know what they are talking about and likely have rather a bit of experience coming in after the fact and "cleaning up" amateur jobs. I dare say that getting good audio is actually MORE DIFFICULT than shooting good video for amateurs.

I agree, and as I said previously, it is my own experiences "after the fact" that are the motivation for getting it right on this production (to do as much as possible within our limitations.) In that spirit I am here to humbly ask for advice from those with experience on the best way to do a good job with what what we have/can get in the budget.

But when some people here instead choose to talk about the "class" of the equipment not being good enough, or turn their nose up at Tascam 680 pre-amps or whatever, is not helping in the slightest - and I suggest that they try their hand at recording with DSLR on-camera microphones, camera mounted microphones, cell phones in pockets, Zoom H4N's and other garbage that zero budget film makers have all dealt with, in order to fully appreciate why I am extremely grateful to have the 680 and the rest of the "class" of equipment that we have for this project.

My original question still remains, how to split a signal from one microphone into two tracks set at two different levels for safety, and how to do that properly?? Or is there a viable, affordable alternative?

 

[msorrels]

I would say you will need some sort of splitter/isolator. So I checked Amazon and found this:
http://www.amazon.com/ROLLS-SPLITTER-COMBINER-ISOLATER-MS20C/dp/B001030ZUQ

But if you read the review comments one of them is very interesting:

Great high-pass filter! Blocks everything below about 150Hz.

By TransplantGuy on August 29, 2013
Amazon Verified Purchase

I mean EVERYTHING on the low end is blocked. There's nothing there to recover even with extreme EQ settings. I ruined several interviews with this piece of junk. I used it to record the boom mic to two sources for redundancy. It made both copies useless. It does this on the "straight-thorough" connection and isolated side.

I suspect there are issues with phantom power mics and devices like these. I've never heard of anyone actually doing a split record though. There are other splitter products that might actually work, just thought this one and it's review comment was very funny.

 

[Ariaelf]

Thanks for checking Matt!

I got the original idea from these forums, so it seems that it must be possible to do successfully... I'll have to find the original post...

 

[Ariaelf]

Wow, I just noticed you're from Seattle too! Go home team!
I read your brief bio and out of all the things was most impressed by the 'procrastinator' bit... :laugh:

 

[Noiz2]

It's a bit of a pet peeve of mine as a no-budget film maker, to see people in my situation asking questions online of those with more experience, and the answer basically amounts to "hire me!" Whether it's DP's, sound pros, make-up artists, whatever, "You should hire me!" is the answer to every question.

I get it. But don't you all realize... we would all love to hire one of you guys! It would be amazing to work with pros! But wanting doesn't make it possible, the world isn't perfect, money doesn't grow on trees, and in my particular situation we are shooting this feature film in a small ocean-side lumber town, over 2 hours away from the nearest major city where anyone with any real experience would be located, or film gear could be rented. If you know any "pros" who don't mind commuting 4 hours per day and working for free in WA state, please feel free to send them my way.

Back in the real world, we are doing the best we can with what we have, and are open to suggestions for how to do it better within the bounds of reason and budget.

There is no need to tell me how it can't be fixed in post or ADR is expensive, because I know this full well, and have been through it before. I am here trying to get all the good advice I can precisely because I want to avoid past mistakes.



Well that's fine, but a lot of audio pros that I respect who have done reviews are really impressed with them, so I don't think it's an issue.

It reminds me of a joke I heard once... if camera guys were like sound guys, films would only be shot on Alexa's with 50k worth of glass on the front end.

A few points. There is a reason to hire a pro. You don't grab some volunteer off the street to work on your breaks. Why? because you want them done right. If you don't have the money then you can "hire" a friend who knows what they are doing, but you don't use someone who doesn't know what they are doing unless you have a death wish.

Hire doesn't necessarily cost you any money. I'm doing a pilot right now that I'm not charging for. My "payment" is getting dibs on the show if it gets picked up. I have done features for participation. I got a feature a mix on the same stage that the Godfather REDUX was mixing on for favors. So the "I'm poor" thing just doesn't cut it. You could easily hire someone for what you are planning on spending on equipment that you don't know how to use but are going to "train" others who have less experience to use.

Your joke would be more on point if it wasn't for the fact that most low budget filmmakers spend 10 times for camera gear and fun toys what they are willing to spend on sound.

Not really trying to chew you out but it's a pet peeve of mine that we get tons of "sound is very important to me" followed by "But I have no money to spend on it after I bought the camera" posts. And I get tired of the general assumption, that even comes out in your posts, that there really isn't any skill involved you just need to have the right box.

BTW if you are planning your shots out then you know that 80% of the time you are only going to be seeing one set of lips. There are a few wide shots but then you are going to be cutting back and forth so you only need the actor you are shooting. If you can get away with it ideally you wouldn't even have the other one talking so you can get clean takes. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 90% of all films have been shot with a single boom. Radio mics are a relatively new thing to add into the mix. Most films prior to the 70's were recorded on mono recorders. So it is entirely possible to do a whole show with only one boom IF the shots are planned out.

In your shoes I would be having the wireless for coverage because with a less experienced crew yes that could be a life saver, but two booms like having two cameras is one of those "gee we will save all this time" kind of mistakes that old farts like me have seen many times. With two booms you have twice as many shadows to worry about and it's often pretty crowded with only a normal crew.

As to finding crew, did you actually ask around? I'm in detroit now and there are bloody few film professionals around. But the sound guy for Cheap Trick lives up the street and Clint Eastwood's DP is walking distance. A producer just moved in a few blocks from here and I now have a half dozen or so shooters and editors that I know locally, because I went out looking. Yes it's a big city but there is no place you can rent anything film related in the city, nobody does post sound around here except to drop in music in commercials, and a couple of films come to town a year to shoot some ruin porn, so it's not like being in LA, or even SF.

I've had people tell me (in SF) I just can't get anybody. My response was "really?, you didn't ask anyone I know". So maybe you are right and you are off the edge of the world and there are no film people local (well except you I suppose) but most people who "can't find any experienced crew" have basically asked a few friends and called it a day. BTW theatres use sound people, who are often very experienced...

 

[Rick R]

"My original question still remains, how to split a signal from one microphone into two tracks set at two different levels for safety"
Simply, an XLR "Y" cable. But since you know it all already, why ask?
Rick: out

 

[Noiz2]

To get back to the original question.

First off you are talking about using four mics and doubling each for safety. You can't do that on the 680 because you can't record eight analog signals.

So I guess you could decide to just do the booms? I was thinking you could take the direct outs and feed them two two other channels but of course that doesn't help you if you blow out the inputs.

I think realistically you should probably be looking at getting a stack of THESE

 

[Ariaelf]

A few points. There is a reason to hire a pro. You don't grab some volunteer off the street to work on your breaks. Why? because you want them done right. If you don't have the money then you can "hire" a friend who knows what they are doing, but you don't use someone who doesn't know what they are doing unless you have a death wish.

Hire doesn't necessarily cost you any money. I'm doing a pilot right now that I'm not charging for. My "payment" is getting dibs on the show if it gets picked up. I have done features for participation. I got a feature a mix on the same stage that the Godfather REDUX was mixing on for favors. So the "I'm poor" thing just doesn't cut it. You could easily hire someone for what you are planning on spending on equipment that you don't know how to use but are going to "train" others who have less experience to use.

Your joke would be more on point if it wasn't for the fact that most low budget filmmakers spend 10 times for camera gear and fun toys what they are willing to spend on sound.

Not really trying to chew you out but it's a pet peeve of mine that we get tons of "sound is very important to me" followed by "But I have no money to spend on it after I bought the camera" posts. And I get tired of the general assumption, that even comes out in your posts, that there really isn't any skill involved you just need to have the right box.

I don't really want to take the time to respond to your long and condescending rant that ignores most of the facts I've stated, glazes things over with your own personal biases regarding other posters and what other low budget film makers have or haven't done, and hilariously compares a sleepy luberjack town of 10,000 people (which is predominantly retirees) with Detroit and it's population of millions of people - and sees no big difference. To top it off, your entire rambling reply completely ignores the one sound related question which is the reason for this thread (that no one seems to have a straight answer for).

I came with a single, simple question about using xlr splitters, and instead I get a lecture from a complete stranger on exactly how I should be making the entire film and how to hire people without paying them. Golly, all these years in no-budget indie, I have never heard of such a concept. Thank-you Sir! What would I do without you... *end sarcasm*

So what exactly is the point of the forum here? To help people with real sound questions, or take out your personal angst against indie film makers because you think they love the camera department more??? :huh:

I'll tell you that you can take that $#!t out on someone else. I haven't said one word about the camera department in any of this, I don't appreciate your prejudices and assumptions, and in fact I will not be spending a dollar on the camera department until sound is in order (and of the less than 10k budget for the entire film, 3-4k will be going solely to the sound department). So don't presume to tell me how the show should be run without knowing anything whatsoever about the film or the situation.

If you're going to start telling me as the director, how many times I "should" have two actors in a shot, or how the film "should" be cut together, how many mics or cameras "should" be on location, than I humbly suggest you take up directing yourself, and leave sound to people who are actually there to serve the directors vision and respect the film makers.

 

[Ariaelf]

Obviously the question isn't how to split the signal, but IF xlr splitters would degrade the quality of the sound, and if so, alternative methods to achieve the same objective.

Again, since this is a method I read about in the dvxuser forum stickies under "helpful tips", but have been told by other audio people it will screw up the signal quality, I am confused as to which is true or a good idea.

Splitting the signal from the wireless lavs was never mentioned. Two tracks from each boom is four tracks, two more from the wireless lav backups is 6 tracks. The 680 is capable of recording 8 tracks at once.

 

[msorrels]

If you use a good splitter/isolator that is wired correctly I don't think it will degrade the quality of the sound. Those kinds of things are used all the time in live venues. I'm not so sure about the ART Splitcom Pro linked above. One of the Amazon reviews about it claim it's not a true isolation setup, but the ART SplitPro http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SplitPro seems like it could do what you want (it doesn't have the dual combine feature). You'd need two of them. And a bunch of short XLR cables.

Recording 6 tracks of audio from two booms and two lavs is going to be tough on who ever runs your recorder. I'd recommend printing nice clear checklists for each thing they need to do. Just setting up the Tascam correctly I'd bet will involve a lot of steps. You're going to be recording a lot of files, you might want to think long and hard about how you want to log and manage all that. Label all the memory cards. More checklists can really help with that. Same thing with who ever is doing your slates. You are going to have a ton of audio all of the same thing. Managing that is going to be very important. Clipboards and log sheets, pencils with strings.

And you need to test everything. Set it all up. Use it. Then document how to do that.

But I don't think if you use the right splitter for the XLR signal it will be degraded. But you are going to have to test that too. What you are doing isn't done all that often which is why no one who's replied really knows for sure. In theory a Y-Splitter might even work given the way the Tascam runs pantom power to two channels at a time. But I don't think I'd personally risk that one. Good luck.

 

[Ariaelf]

If you use a good splitter/isolator that is wired correctly I don't think it will degrade the quality of the sound. Those kinds of things are used all the time in live venues. I'm not so sure about the ART Splitcom Pro linked above. One of the Amazon reviews about it claim it's not a true isolation setup, but the ART SplitPro http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SplitPro seems like it could do what you want (it doesn't have the dual combine feature). You'd need two of them. And a bunch of short XLR cables.

Good to know. Thanks!

Recording 6 tracks of audio from two booms and two lavs is going to be tough on who ever runs your recorder. I'd recommend printing nice clear checklists for each thing they need to do. Just setting up the Tascam correctly I'd bet will involve a lot of steps. You're going to be recording a lot of files, you might want to think long and hard about how you want to log and manage all that. Label all the memory cards. More checklists can really help with that. Same thing with who ever is doing your slates. You are going to have a ton of audio all of the same thing. Managing that is going to be very important. Clipboards and log sheets, pencils with strings.

Checklists, you bet. It will be like launching into space on this set!

As far as keeping all the files straight, I've got one word for that: Pluraleyes! :happy:
(and being grouped together by scene of course.)

And you need to test everything. Set it all up. Use it. Then document how to do that.

Yep. It's called pre-production. And I'm a big believer in it.

But I don't think if you use the right splitter for the XLR signal it will be degraded. But you are going to have to test that too. What you are doing isn't done all that often which is why no one who's replied really knows for sure. In theory a Y-Splitter might even work given the way the Tascam runs pantom power to two channels at a time. But I don't think I'd personally risk that one. Good luck.

Risk? Are you saying it could fry the recorder? Really wish I could find the original post on these forums where this idea was suggested by someone who did it. And all the replies were like "oh awesome, how smart!" etc. Of course I have no clue which recorder they were using and if that makes a difference.

Thanks again Matt. Making me wish I was back up in Seattle for this one...

Next time!

 

[Steve House]

Obviously the question isn't how to split the signal, but IF xlr splitters would degrade the quality of the sound, and if so, alternative methods to achieve the same objective.

Again, since this is a method I read about in the dvxuser forum stickies under "helpful tips", but have been told by other audio people it will screw up the signal quality, I am confused as to which is true or a good idea.

.....

To put a point on it ... a splitter will work fine but a simple 'Y' cable is NOT a splitter and is likely to degrade the signal. To do it properly you need a transformer-based splitter so the two inputs are isolated from each other and the load impedance presented to the mic remains proper. See the short article explaining is here ... http://whirlwindusa.com/support/tech-articles/microphone-splitters/ The article talks about sending one mic to two devices but the same principles apply when sending it to two inputs on the same device.

 

[Alex H.]

So what exactly is the point of the forum here? To help people with real sound questions, or take out your personal angst against indie film makers because you think they love the camera department more???


I'll tell you that you can take that $#!t out on someone else.

Easy, now. The audio forum may play a little rough sometimes, but it is full of experienced professionals who are willing to help. Attitude won't go far, and we need to keep this conversation on track. One and only warning to all involved here.

Here's the thing about experienced professionals: when you bring a question in to them, especially providing as much detail in the original post as you did regarding your setup (which is actually very helpful, and very rare), they may see things in that setup that you didn't think about. Sometimes, it may be an alternative practice to the original question... a better way of doing things that should at least be considered. Some things may not even have to do with the original question, but may still be beneficial. Two of us pointed out that having three on your sound crew (two boom ops and one mixer/recordist) would be a lot better for the crew and the end-product than having one boom op double as mixer with the DR-680, and it seems you took that suggestion to heart.

I've been at this for 20 years, and I have learned from a lot of mistakes. I've also learned some best practices both from my own experiences and from learning from other professionals along the way.

To put a point on it ... a splitter will work fine but a simple 'Y' cable is NOT a splitter and is likely to degrade the signal.

And herein lies a lot of the confusion of this thread. Y-cables have some uses, and this is not one of them. If they aren't wired properly or have other materials or manufacturing flaws they can cause problems.

Splitter boxes are often used in live stage productions (often built into the box-end of a snake) to send mics and other stage-sourced inputs to both Front of House (FOH) and monitor (MON) mixers simultaneously. This is wholly different from splitting a signal and sending it twice to the same device, since only one mixer will be providing phantom and the signals will be effectively isolated in the split.

I used to work on a lot of episodic TV... lifestyle-type programming, like home decorating and renovation shows. Most of these were two-camera field shoots on DBeta, and I was running from an audio bag with a Shure FP33 mixer (the industry standard before Sound Devices came along). I used Y-cables to send my outputs to both cameras and had no issues, but that was splitting to separate devices and splitting line-level outputs. Plus, we made our own splitter cables so we knew how they were constructed and soldered.

When I was running with a single mic, I used the mixer's pan control to create the safety track, and the reason this is a solid way to do it is that it maintains proper gain staging all the way through since it is controlled before the mixer's output. Some recorders nowadays, like the TASCAM DR-40, offer an internal safety track option. That's great, in theory, except it can only catch issues within the recorder. Anything that clips in the mixer or on the input of the recorder is still hosed, just at a lower record level.

If you can find a good deal on a used Sound Devices 422 mixer (I know, not what you want to hear, but please consider this), you'll be able to do everything you want to do. The mixer is discontinued, so used is all that's available, but it is a solid workhorse. With direct outputs on each input, you can go direct into the DR-680 with both booms and both wireless systems. You cam then use the stereo outs to create your safety tracks on the booms. It adds a huge amount of flexibility to your kit.

And one last thought: before plunking all this money into buying gear for a feature, you might want to investigate the cost of rental. You can get better gear for your production without having to buy. Trew Audio will ship rentals anywhere in the country.

 

[Noiz2]

You keep claiming no one is answering your question but in fact it has been answered multiple times. It seems that all you really want is folks to say YES it will work. Unfortunatly most don't think it will, or that it might but there is a risk of problems, and a few who are worried that you will blow the phantom power circuit.

So to recap nobody here has done this successfully, though it also looks like nobody has done it at all so... Technically there are a bunch of reasons why it could cause problems from small to great, and that is tied very much to how the 680 is designed and how your splitter is constructed and even the order you plug things in and switch stuff on. People who do this for a living (ie folks who need it to work) spend the $ for splitter boxes so they don't have to worry about the above problems.

That pretty much sums it up. Nobody has said "do it" except some unknown person on some thread you can't find who said it was "awesome". Now you get to pick your experts.


BTW you apparently haven't picked up a paper recently, Detroit hasn't had a population in "the millions" since the early 1960's. It's hovering someplace like 500,000. It's technically 150 square miles but over 1/2 is open fields and farms. Detroit is essentially a cluster of small towns under one municipality.

 

[Noiz2]

Splitting the signal from the wireless lavs was never mentioned. Two tracks from each boom is four tracks, two more from the wireless lav backups is 6 tracks. The 680 is capable of recording 8 tracks at once.

True but neither was splitting the boom, just splitting mic tracks so... If you are going to split for safety why would you not split all the mics?

Anyway you need to look closer at the manual. The 680 can not record eight analog ins. You have six mic/lines and a stereo track that can either record a "mix" of the mic ins or record the digital in. So unless you get a separate analog to digital converter box the 680 is a six channel recorder with the ability to do a rough mix for dailies.

 

[Ariaelf]

To put a point on it ... a splitter will work fine but a simple 'Y' cable is NOT a splitter and is likely to degrade the signal. To do it properly you need a transformer-based splitter so the two inputs are isolated from each other and the load impedance presented to the mic remains proper. See the short article explaining is here ... http://whirlwindusa.com/support/tech-articles/microphone-splitters/ The article talks about sending one mic to two devices but the same principles apply when sending it to two inputs on the same device.

Awesome - thanks for clearing that up Steve.

 

[indiawilds]

Since you are going to do many takes to record scripted and improvised versions, why do you think that you need safety tracks for all the takes? It will be a nightmare to keep track and then grapple with it in the post.

In the scripted versions, your talents are not likely to "scream" and if they do scream then you know it before hand and adjust accordingly. In the improvised versions you may not know whether the talent is going to speak at a much higher level suddenly or for a part of the dialogue. If the boom operator is noticing the body language of the actor than he/she will know that the actor is going to raise his voice. It takes some effort to scream and if the boom operator is observing the actors carefully than he/she is going to move the boom away a bit. Ofcourse, since your boom operators are volunteers, they may have some problems. May be you can try and get the boom operators practice when the talents are rehearsing.

Simple solutions can often give better results than depending upon tech based approaches which you haven't mastered.

 

[Ariaelf]

Since you are going to do many takes to record scripted and improvised versions, why do you think that you need safety tracks for all the takes? It will be a nightmare to keep track and then grapple with it in the post.

Not sure where the idea of "many takes" is from, since there is no such thing as a second take of an improvised performance.

The definition of improvised, is that it's unpredictable. The actors have no idea what they are going to say ahead of time, and they're not going to remember word for word what they said after they do it once. So no, there aren't "many takes" of that. There is one take, one for each version of the improvisation. The audio from one can not be used to cover up a mistake in another.

I also don't really want to explain acting and directing and creative choices on this forum, since that is completely off topic - but suffice to say if an actor does an incredible improvised performance (or even a non-improvised performance) where they break down sobbing on the floor (for example) and that is only happening once, I want to make sure I have good audio for that one "golden" take. You can't ADR that, and you can't ask them to do it again because your audio spiked.

Well... you could ask. But it ain't gonna happen.

For another thing, we have limited time at many donated locations, and some gorilla locations, where one, maybe two takes might be all we have time to set up and get as the light fades during golden hour. I realize it may be hard for some people to think outside of the typical Hollywood/set/studio environment they are accustomed too and the realities of zero-budget film making are completely backwards, but just take my word for why the set up is what it is, instead of questioning these production decisions or telling us to do it differently. The set up has been well thought out.

I came here with a question about splitting a mic signal, not to debate how the film "should" be made with people I've never met making a lot of assumptions about me and/or the creative process. I am grateful that I have gotten some helpful info in this thread and via private message that has pointed me in the right direction, and will require further research on my part, as well as a few tips on well-performing/relatively low cost equipment. So I will not be posting again until I have another audio related question, or am ready to post with an update on how things turned out during the shoot.

Best,

~Aria

PS. If you think "safety tracks" are a "nightmare to keep track and then grapple with in post" you should try ADR-ing an entire film with a partially deaf actor. You'd give your right arm for a safety track.

PPS. Pluraleyes. You might want to look it up if managing your audio files is a nightmarish.