Why you never use the on camera mic....

mainstreetprod said:
Behind the scenes footage, cutting back and forth between this cam and the main cam with an Octava MC-012 Hyper on left and AT 4053a hyper on right. Prime example of why it pays to use good mics and get them close in.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsaDK4EpZJ4
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Excellent demonstration!. But there's still too much room slap in the boom mics and there's a noticable change in timbre with the character's movements as they go in and out of the mic's sweet spots. Really should have had two booms ops following their movements instead of locking the mic positions down on stands.
 
Really should have had two booms ops following their movements instead of locking the mic positions down on stands.


Great in theory and for higher budget shoots - not so practical for a micro budget. $400 a day for just one professional boom op would have tripled the budget of the movie. The alternative of course, is an amateur boom op. I found the stands a lot more reliable. They hold the mics at the distance I determine and do not cause handling noise. I found handling noise to be a major problem when using amateurs, despite a good shockmount. I also found that all the novice boom ops and some of the pros tended to mic farther away than I like, especially if they normally do a lot of broadcast work. One guy , who owned a great kit, insisted on keeping the mic an average of 3 feet away on medium shots - then got irritated when I asked him to move closer.


We did use pro boom ops on critical scenes and G2 wireless lavs on others, when a lot of movement made it necessary. On scenes like this one, with basically talking heads, we found using the stands to be a good tradeoff. Head turns/movement could be somewhat compensated for in post. As far as using two different mics, doesn't matter in this particular case, as they are on two different actors. I generally used the same mic on a particular actor.
 
I understand your concerns and limitations. But I am infuriated by bad audio, so don't take this personal.

You have to work with what you have to work with, good filmmakers only make the most of it.

I just hope your sound budget wasn't a minuscule fraction of your camera budget, because in the end good audio might even be a better investment, since creative justifications for audio still make people cringe. Audio can save your project, making people FEEL that anything they see was 100% intentional.

Good boom sticks also help lower handling noise with specially designed surfaces. And I'd take an amateur operated boom with a strong low pas to cut noise from the horrible weirdness of a mis-placed static where the sound and levels change a ton every time they speak into the table or away from the mic, then perfectly clear when they look up. All they need is a consistent communication of the frame lines.
 
USLatin said:
Good boom sticks also help lower handling noise with specially designed surfaces. And I'd take an amateur operated boom with a strong low pas to cut noise from the horrible weirdness of a mis-placed static where the sound and levels change a ton every time they speak into the table or away from the mic, then perfectly clear when they look up. All they need is a consistent communication of the frame lines.
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For the record, I think the term "boom stick" should always be used whenever possible.
 
I never did like these short carbon fiber booms. They seem to transfer a lot of noise, and tehyare all short as hell. The whole point fo a 14" boom is to counter balance the weight by extending the stick fully and having part of it extend behind you (space willing of course).

I've seen many a newb boom op start doing the funky chicken dance while booming cause they are holding the back end of the stick and the weight gets to them. They then end up making extra noise from the cable banging on the stick, etc.
 
My budget is always low, so I spend an equally low amount on all parts of my production.


I use a 25 dollar modified light-bulb changer as my boom stick. Yup, the big yellow ones. A little heavy, but it's quiet, strong, and extends fully. Go on and hate me, pro sound men!

More interested in what would have been the best way to boom a two camera setup like this with only one mic/one boom op. I know scooping is considered a last resort, but with a hyper scooped just below frame in the middle of the two actresses, would this have helped with the "look away" table muffle problem?

EDIT: PS, I too have noticed on professional sets, boom guys tend to boom way farther than what I've been taught. Some guys boom 4 or more feet above the actors' heads in longer shots. Is this actually getting good audio, or is there some practical purpose here, like syncing for later?
 
It depends on the set, which is just as important as your whole sound department. If the place is quiet and sounds nice you don't need to be on their face. Sometimes you want to hear the room a bit more. Booming from further away also helps diminish the variances from the actor moving.

All I am saying is to that all productions need to move more money from camera dept to sound dept, not yours, all. There is nothing better than a guy that knows eons more than you and understands what you want, and often gives you better.

Gohanto said:
For the record, I think the term "boom stick" should always be used whenever possible.
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:) It made it impossible to confuse what I was referring to. I definitely sounds weird as heck.
 
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USLatin said:
It depends on the set, which is just as important as your whole sound department. If the place is quiet and sounds nice you don't need to be on their face. Sometimes you want to hear the room a bit more. Booming from further away also helps diminish the variances from the actor moving.

All I am saying is to that all productions need to move more money from camera dept to sound dept, not yours, all. There is nothing better than a guy that knows eons more than you and understands what you want, and often gives you better.



:) It made it impossible to confuse what I was referring to. I definitely sounds weird as heck.
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I don't usually use my boom stick in public. Police frown on that sort of thing. ;)
 
I can hear the difference between the two mics, it might be nice to have a matched set. The oktava seemed a little smoother, if that is it on the left. Thanks for the demo, even if the result was never in doubt.
 
mainstreetprod said:
Really should have had two booms ops following their movements instead of locking the mic positions down on stands.


Great in theory and for higher budget shoots - not so practical for a micro budget. $400 a day for just one professional boom op would have tripled the budget of the movie. The alternative of course, is an amateur boom op. I found the stands a lot more reliable. They hold the mics at the distance I determine and do not cause handling noise. ... On scenes like this one, with basically talking heads, we found using the stands to be a good tradeoff. ...
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Except that the talent going on and off mic with their head movements is very noticable and distracts from the dialog, so IMHO it really is NOT an acceptable tradeoff.
 
To be fair to the on-camera mic - it was much further away from the talent than the Oktivas. Still, of course the on-cam mics are worse than a mono hyper. HOWEVER I just had a situation where the humble on-cam omni mic saved an entire session.

I was doing a 2 camera shoot of a few jazz guys improvising a piece live in the studio. There was a mistake made with the bass line-in to the console, and no bass got recorded. We did 5 songs, and the client paid a lot of money for both video and audio. The engineed called me frantic to see what I captured audiowise. My NTG-3 on my cam (moving dolly shots) sounded great, but was constantly moving, so we could not get a consistant sound. But the 2nd cam was stationary, and next to the bass amp. So I took the right channel of the on-cam mic signal, and EQd out the high stuff, then used Waves R-Bass to fatten up the signal, and sent it to the engineer to use. By gum it worked! It's not optimal, but it was all we had, and to civilian ears it will pass. We were not planning on using any camera audio. We only needed it for reverence to line up with the mixed files.

Anyway, here's the finished product. All bass was captured with the EX1 on-cam right channel omni from about 6 feet away from the bass amp. Disaster averted!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTpL-AbrlNU
 
For low budgets and no budget project boompeople do like to help for free.

When someone is doing something like DOP, sound, editing... you don't chose it because you have to from home... But because you love to do it.

Although watch out not to fool people. Don't think "I'm going to keep that 5000 dollar I was paying the soundguys with for myself...."
 
Chadfish said:
To be fair to the on-camera mic - it was much further away from the talent than the Oktivas. Still, of course the on-cam mics are worse than a mono hyper. HOWEVER I just had a situation where the humble on-cam omni mic saved an entire session.
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That's the whole point. It's not the quality of the MIC that's the problem with on-camera mics, it's the location. The camera position that gives you the pictures you want is rarely a good place to put the mic for optimum recording of the sound. Even a $2500 Schoeps CMIT shotgun is going to give sub-par results when held at or near the camera 99% of the time.
 
I just went out to shoot a test with my boom stick and got arrested... 311
;)

Mixing mics in the same scene is a HUGE no-no. Unless one is getting ambient from further away or you are talking about lavs... but never mix lav mics either!

sorry but I can't stand it
 
USLatin said:
I just went out to shoot a test with my boom stick and got arrested... 311
;)

Mixing mics in the same scene is a HUGE no-no. Unless one is getting ambient from further away or you are talking about lavs... but never mix lav mics either!

sorry but I can't stand it
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It depends, some mixers like to have it already "pre-mixed" on set. And some just like to have it on one setting and "let it go".

But for every new thing, everyone has to learn... So also mixing mices on set.
 
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