Why use a Zoom H4N on the camera?

A

andrew00

Well-known member
Hey,

So, I record music a lot, esp away from the stage, so wanted to sort out a good audio setup for my 5D. The original, long-term plan, was to pick up an Edirol R-44 when budget allows and an H4N. That way if I'm on my own I can plug some wireless lavs into the H4N and record in 4-channel mode w/the onboard mics as ambient/on camera mics. And if I have help I can get my sound guy to use the R-44 and I can use the Zoom still on-camera. I already own a H4.

I ended up picking up an R-44 a month ago, mostly b/c I came across a new one for cheap so it worked out well, which was much earlier than I had thought. What was very pleasing was that it fit in my Domke F-3X bag, which in itself is a very small bag, on it's side, even with room in the bag for the 4 XLR inputs, which means I can myself use the R-44 even if I'm solo as it's so small.

So I've been thinking about whether to get the H4N or not, and also why we've all jumped on the H4N bandwagon anyway. For me, I'm conflicted b/c the appeal of the H4N would be 4-channel mode, but since I know I can also use the R-44 I'm can use that and the H4 on-camera if needed. The downside is I can only monitor one, either the R-44 or the H4 through ML av out hack.

(Alternatively I'm sure there's a headphone combiner thing, the opposite of a splitter, to combine the dual sources which might also work.)

Also, in 4-chan mode I miss out on 24/96, as the Zoom, afaik, goes down to 16/48 in this mode. Therefore is there a big advantage to using the H4N? For me, I've already got the H4 so I can do 2-channel 24/96, albeit with a 2gb card limit (vs the H4N's 32). So is there much point paying £300 for an H4N when I now know I can use the R-44 and the H4 I've already got in combo?

Likewise, for everyone else on here that's picked one up, are you coming from the pov of never having really owned audio gear - say you're a stills shooter coming into the DSLR video world? Or is it bandwagon stuff. I'm thinking about foregoing the H4/H4N deal entirely and going with a Rode video mic or something, as then I can take the audio directly from the 5D footage, not the external device, which makes the syncing issue easier.

Ok I have pluraleyes, but still it can fail sometimes, and the H4 can drift (although I hear the H4N is better for this) and it's easier.

I think ultimately I'll continue to use the H4 because I want the 24/96, but I'm curious why other people are rushing to complicate their setups when the audio of the 5d, when properly managed, is sufficient for 95% of situations. For me, I want 24/96 as I record music, but for most people wouldn't convenience and ease of use by more important?
 
Few comments, plural eyes is not that great. I have had problems getting camera audio to sync with board audio - because they just sound so different. This may be something you will run into a lot with trying to sync good audio with not so good.

I would recommend getting your audio in the camera, lot less post editing this way.

Maybe something like this would help to monitor both devices.... And if you put a splitter going out to the cam and headphones, you can monitor and record live. I would recomend something higher quality with more output/monitoring options - but this is cheap and small.

yhst-3248687470797_2084_275734876
 
The big advantage on the H4N is the XLR/TRS input that the unit has. You can plug a cable into it with out any kind of adapter. So if you record with a boom and a lav you wont have to use any kind of submixer to get audio into the H4N. The on board stereo mic is a bonus. Also as far as drift goes, two wild sources will always have some drift eventually. So you would use a H4N to cut down on your cable and equipment needs and still get great audio with out the hassle of the built in automatic gain control and submixer.
 
I record music all the time, and you couldn't pay me to use on board audio with the camera's mics (any camera's mics). Also, the pres in the R44 are definitely better than the H4n, and I'd use the R44 any day over an H4n, it's not even a contest. And whoever mentioned the combo jacks on the H4n, the R44 has FOUR combo jacks all with selectable phantom. Also, I'm not sure why in a music setting (for the performance) on-board audio even matters, unless you're doing interviews, etc.

As for running tethered, sure why not if you've got a camera sitting right there at the soundboard, just run it out of the back of R44 if you want. However, if you're multi-camming it anyway (without timecode sync or jamming), you're going to have to sync all the other cams anyway), and after a while manually syncing music isn't that hard really. Also, if you're mixing in any ambient at all (and you should, just not with the camera's built-in mics at least) that's not on stage, you'll have to delay the soundboard to get sync, so there's always going to audio to deal with. For the record, I always pull two channels from the board and then record two ambient from a stereo pair of my own (usually two AKG480 bodies with card or hypercard capsules).

Honestly, I usually just try to make sure I nail the audio recording as a stand alone thing, then let the cameras do there thing unless like I said, one camera happens to be at the board. But some people let that (being at the board) dictate where one of the cameras is, when I think you should be putting the cameras where you think they should best be -- if that's at the board, great, but if not, so be it. Anyway, that's some more thoughts to chew on.
 
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Tainted said:
I record music all the time, and you couldn't pay me to use on board audio with the camera's mics (any camera's mics). Also, the pres in the R44 are definitely better than the H4n, and I'd use the R44 any day over an H4n, it's not even a contest. And whoever mentioned the combo jacks on the H4n, the R44 has FOUR combo jacks all with selectable phantom. Also, I'm not sure why in a music setting (for the performance) on-board audio even matters, unless you're doing interviews, etc.

As for running tethered, sure why not if you've got a camera sitting right there at the soundboard, just run it out of the back of R44 if you want. However, if you're multi-camming it anyway (without timecode sync or jamming), you're going to have to sync all the other cams anyway), and after a while manually syncing music isn't that hard really. Also, if you're mixing in any ambient at all (and you should, just not with the camera's built-in mics at least) that's not on stage, you'll have to delay the soundboard to get sync, so there's always going to audio to deal with. For the record, I always pull two channels from the board and then record two ambient from a stereo pair of my own (usually two AKG480 bodies with card or hypercard capsules).

Honestly, I usually just try to make sure I nail the audio recording as a stand alone thing, then let the cameras do there thing unless like I said, one camera happens to be at the board. But some people let that (being at the board) dictate where one of the cameras is, when I think you should be putting the cameras where you think they should best be -- if that's at the board, great, but if not, so be it. Anyway, that's some more thoughts to chew on.
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Seconded.

I just recently opted for the Fostex FR-LE2 as a middle ground between the H4N and the 44.

For low budgie stuff, in terms of sound quality, the pretty safe bet is:

1st R-44
2nd FR2-LE
2nd D-50
3rd H4 using line-in (bypasses preamps)
4th H4N

The H4N has the four inputs, but I personally would not compare it to the R-44 even if based soley on preamps (not to mention the SD card noise and phantom power noise that's apparently prevalent in the H4N).

I've heard fine things come off the H4N (even using its onboard mics, which, IMO, is a huge plus for this recorder), but the hundred bucks makes a difference, and a couple hundred more make even more difference.

All of these are without a doubt "prosumer" choices. Not taking anything away from the H4N. I think it's awesome and priced accordingly in comparison to the other recorders listed.

That's my take.

:)
 
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dantewaters said:
Why does the footage skip because it's at 30fps? and not 29.99?
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It doesn't "skip" but it won't synchronize with the audio.

Why? Because you're purposesly choosing to play the footage back at a different speed than what it was recorded at. The 5D records at 30.000 fps. If you put that on a 29.97 timeline, you'll find that all your footage is now taking .1% longer to play.

The audio, however, is realtime. The footage playback, being not realtime, will drift apart fromthe audio.

You can solve it by choosing 30.000 as the timebase in your editor, if it allows such and if your target delivery is internet distribution and not television. Or, you can slow down the audio by 0.1% to match the video that's been slowed down by 0.1%.
 
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