Why the Zoom F4 does not work as an ENG field mixer, feeding line level into a camera

BTW, I belive the F4's meters show input level anyway. There are things it seems to say in the manual that do not seem to work that way when you try it. For instance I can set output to +4 and get -12 levels in camcorder (16bit) but the gain on the camcorder has to be almost all the way up. From my analog mixer +4 give me -12 at the center. I tend to use -12 (0dBVU) as my recording peak for conversational level sound.
 
Why the disappointment? I have several dealings with Zoom over the years over different things and have found (certainly the Australian agent to be stunningly great)
 
RE: Zoom F4 and slate tone level.
I am stumped.
-I set output levels to camera so that the Zoom's meters match the Camera meters.
-I set the slate tone to -18db and It shows up as -18db on the internal meters.
-BUT output of just the tone to the camera is way higher than that. Maxes out the camera's meters, in fact. (Sony Fs7)
-AND when I record the tone on the zoom, then play it back. the tone then matches on both the F4 and Camera meters !
-What the Sam Hell is going on? Help!
Mark Knobil
Docco DP Pittsburgh
 
I can't answer your question but I have read there is some weirdness with the tone level on the Zoom. If I remember correctly the slate tone is affected by your output settings so if you are adding gain there your tone will not be output at the level you thinking. But if you record it to the zoom it will be recorded correctly and so playing it back should output it at the correct level.

This becomes an issue if you are going into a +4 line input because the Zoom outputs at -10 so to get to a decent level at +4 you would need to boost the output and whack out the tone level.

A possible work around would be to send a mic level to the camera since your hero tracks are on the F8.
 
I just went and had a look at my F4 and the tone setting is -20 which seems to exactly match the '0' level on the metering when you are monitoring track levels on the F4.
The output of the main out is set to -10 and also the sub is set to -10, the main out is normally then sent to the camera and feeds the input of the camera as 'Mic' level and from what I can recall the input level of the camera is about 3 (on a Sony F7 camera).

The Sub out feeds a Comtek Tx unit.
 
Sending a line level to a mic in is asking for trouble. If the F4 doesn't have a mic level out you should be sticking an attenuator in the path ~-40dB. But I thought you could go mic out from the F series.
 
And I got it backwards.
From Ben Giles earlier in this thread:

Either way, bear in mind that the F4 slate tone is post fader - so it's independent of the master out level. If you want to reduce the master out level to hot mic, you'll need to record some tone (you can set the level in the slate tone menu at -20 or -18 for example) and play that back, so you can calibrate for unity gain.
Click to expand...
 
And the tone level is also mentioned in this review.

A bigger problem is its slate tone. According to page 118 of the user manual:

The MAIN OUT 1/2 and SUB OUT 1/2 faders do not affect the level of the slate tone.
Click to expand...
This is not good. One of the main purposes of slate tone is to use it to adjust the audio levels of other equipment you connect. For example, if the main XLR outputs of the Zoom F4 are connected to a breakaway cable, and that cable is connected to the audio inputs of the main camera of a shoot, you cannot use the slate tone on the F4 to adjust the audio input levels on the camera.

Simply put, the volume level of the slate tone on the F4 should match the volume level of the Main Outputs. The way the Zoom F4 is now, you would need to plug a tone generator, like the Shure A15TG, into one of its inputs and use it as a slate tone to set the levels of cameras and other equipment you attach.
Click to expand...
 
Mknobil said:
Hoping for a firmware fix to make the Slate Tone usable for calibration of main out to camera ... :-/
=mark=
Click to expand...

Adjust the camera 'in' rather than the audio mixer 'out' go into the camera at mic level rather than line level.....

Why are people getting so hung up with sending line level to a camera?
When the signal goes into the camera it (@ line level) normally hits an internal pad to drop it down to mic level anyway.
 
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OzGizmo said:
Adjust the camera 'in' rather than the audio mixer 'out' go into the camera at mic level rather than line level.....

Why are people getting so hung up with sending line level to a camera?
When the signal goes into the camera it (@ line level) normally hits an internal pad to drop it down to mic level anyway.
Click to expand...

While true for consumer cameras I doubt that this is true for most professional cameras. Though if you are recording with the F series the camera feed should really just be a guide track for syncing so...
 
Scott,
Are you saying that the Sony Fs7 Audio inputs are not usable?
That has not been my experience.
Also, am I to understand that if I switch the cameras inputs to mic level then the slate tone will match the audio output level?
=mark=
 
Mknobil said:
Scott,
Are you saying that the Sony Fs7 Audio inputs are not usable?
That has not been my experience.
Also, am I to understand that if I switch the cameras inputs to mic level then the slate tone will match the audio output level?
=mark=
Click to expand...

No I'm not saying you can't use them but if you are going to use the camera tracks then get a mixer not a recorder. There is no reason to use an F series if you don't use the audio tracks. And IF you are using the audio from the F4/8 then the camera audio is a sync track that you won't use.

Yes I believe if you switch the camera to mic and output from the F series at mic level your tones should match. The reason it doesn't at line is that the F series puts out a -10 line level and most cameras expect a +4 level.
That is my understanding anyway.
 
Old topic but now that I have the F4 I looked a bit more into this.

First a minor error that popped up early. -10dBv (unbalanced) is the most common consumer line level, but CD players actually us a slightly hotter "line" level -6dBv I believe.
Also dBv and dBu are not equivalent scales. And the out put setting is a boost or subtract from the normal output not a reading of what the actual output is.

So setting the output level to +4 boosts the output level by 4dBv, it does not set your output to +4dBu. -10dBv is actually about -7.8 dBu. To get to an output level of +4dBu you need to raise the out put 11.8 dBv. And this was obviously the thinking because you can raise the output by 12dB(v) thus giving you a slightly hot +4dBu output.

The only real "catch" is that the tones are not routed through the output level adjustment so the slate tone is fairly useless as a level setting tool.

So you could get around that by setting the gain on the camera to about +12dB over it's unity, or use a wireless hop, or use a tone generator on an input of the F4.

Adjusting the output down to "mic" level will have a similar hunk of problems with tone level.

So really the only issue is the tone generator. If it went through the output gain section all would be fine because you can pump the output up to +4 dBu and the only thing that "breaks" is the level of the tone generator.

For me, and I suspect many, this is not much of an issue. First for many projects I am not sending XLR line level to a camera. On the few production gigs I have had to do that I can use an external generator. Since I am using my vintage MixPre as input to 5/6 I can use it's slate tone. But you can by a generator for not a lot.
Like this super handy troubleshooter

I may have to get one just for testing inplace mic runs and house systems.

RE: TC out the bottom. Less than the most convenient location but a quick look in my big bag of adapters and pulled out my ziplock of BNC stuff solved whatever will come up with that. Back some time ago audio had a lot of BNC connectors on gear so I have BNC to just about everything else plus a couple of right angle adapters.
If you need some they cost a whooping $2.50 a pop from B&H.

The other "issue" was the bottom access for the cards. The Marantz had side access and it was just as much work to get to them in a full bag so I don't really see the issue. Plus I have a pair of 32gig cards in there. I'm don't need to swap out cards during the day, that is about 32 hrs PER card.

And since we are on some "fizes" I ended up with a bunch of power blocks from a different project so I built a harness and run both the Zoom and the MixPre off of them.
6,000 mah for $30, really hard to beat

Super long shelf life so I'm ready to go always. Since keeping AA's in for backup is problematic with Alkaline because if you forget and they stay in and leak... I got some lithium AA batteries that I leave in the boxes. They should last about the shelf life since I am basically never using them.

I haven't done a test with this setup on the power block but I ran a small sound system (amp + speakers) for over 5 hours on one and it was only maybe at the 1/2 level, so I expect to get more than I will use in a day out of one (and I ended up with four so...).
 
Noiz2 said:
Old topic but now that I have the F4 I looked a bit more into this.

First a minor error that popped up early. -10dBv (unbalanced) is the most common consumer line level, but CD players actually us a slightly hotter "line" level -6dBv I believe.
Also dBv and dBu are not equivalent scales. And the out put setting is a boost or subtract from the normal output not a reading of what the actual output is.

So setting the output level to +4 boosts the output level by 4dBv, it does not set your output to +4dBu. -10dBv is actually about -7.8 dBu. To get to an output level of +4dBu you need to raise the out put 11.8 dBv. And this was obviously the thinking because you can raise the output by 12dB(v) thus giving you a slightly hot +4dBu output.

The only real "catch" is that the tones are not routed through the output level adjustment so the slate tone is fairly useless as a level setting tool.

So you could get around that by setting the gain on the camera to about +12dB over it's unity, or use a wireless hop, or use a tone generator on an input of the F4.

Adjusting the output down to "mic" level will have a similar hunk of problems with tone level.

So really the only issue is the tone generator. If it went through the output gain section all would be fine because you can pump the output up to +4 dBu and the only thing that "breaks" is the level of the tone generator.

For me, and I suspect many, this is not much of an issue. First for many projects I am not sending XLR line level to a camera. On the few production gigs I have had to do that I can use an external generator. Since I am using my vintage MixPre as input to 5/6 I can use it's slate tone. But you can by a generator for not a lot.
Like this super handy troubleshooter

I may have to get one just for testing inplace mic runs and house systems.

RE: TC out the bottom. Less than the most convenient location but a quick look in my big bag of adapters and pulled out my ziplock of BNC stuff solved whatever will come up with that. Back some time ago audio had a lot of BNC connectors on gear so I have BNC to just about everything else plus a couple of right angle adapters.
If you need some they cost a whooping $2.50 a pop from B&H.

The other "issue" was the bottom access for the cards. The Marantz had side access and it was just as much work to get to them in a full bag so I don't really see the issue. Plus I have a pair of 32gig cards in there. I'm don't need to swap out cards during the day, that is about 32 hrs PER card.

And since we are on some "fizes" I ended up with a bunch of power blocks from a different project so I built a harness and run both the Zoom and the MixPre off of them.
6,000 mah for $30, really hard to beat

Super long shelf life so I'm ready to go always. Since keeping AA's in for backup is problematic with Alkaline because if you forget and they stay in and leak... I got some lithium AA batteries that I leave in the boxes. They should last about the shelf life since I am basically never using them.

I haven't done a test with this setup on the power block but I ran a small sound system (amp + speakers) for over 5 hours on one and it was only maybe at the 1/2 level, so I expect to get more than I will use in a day out of one (and I ended up with four so...).
Click to expand...

Wish any of my cameras had TC i/o, I think I would have gone for that F4 deal for $350.00. But my new Fujifilm XT-3 only has HDMI out for TC so the Mix Pre 3 was a better fit. But the F4 was such the better deal and I am cheap ;-)
 
reviving an old/new thread.

i am no sound person.

i bought the zoom f4 as an upgrade from a tascam dr60d, in part because of the aggressive deal price.

i use these recorders when i am doing small corporate omd gigs where i really need a low profile.

many of these gigs involve non media people who are very awkward on-camera.

i get them to sit across from me and discuss stuff that is often challenging.

consequentially, audio is sometimes mumbled, garbled and whispered.

i often use a canon or panasonic dsl/mirrorless.

i use the external recorder so i can have a lav and a boom and a headphone monitor.

i often use the safety track function.

so now i have a zoom f4 and i just want an easy step by step workflow.

having read this thread twice, i now understand that the f4's tone is an unreliable method for me to set the signal from recorder back to camera.

is there a simple workaround?

is the plug-in tone generator really the best solution for a omd?

(did i mention i was not an audio person?)

with so many more experienced audio folks on the forum, perhaps someone can assist me in crafting a specific but simple set-up workflow.

i have several sony xlr lavs and often use the ecm-77.

i most often use the at 4053b as my boom mic.

i am alway in an interior environment for these intimate sit-down interviews.

thanks in advance.

rob
smalltalk productions/nyc
 
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and this user review from the b&h website only confuses me more:

"As far as quirks, the big ones are the audio output is an odd level, its between mic and pro-line level audio. Basically feeding out audio to camera its either set camera to mic and turn the input feed way down) or set camera to mic level and turn the input feed way up (introducing more noise with lower quality pre-amps). I opt for mic level and running the pots very low. I know that I have the recording anyways if theres an issue. The second quirk is that the inputs offer no mic/line pad switch. Thus if you want to input a line level source, you have to adapt an XLR to 1/4" phono, as on this mixer 1/4" is line level and XLR is mic, and thats just the way it is. Its annoying and no reason they couldn't have fixed that that I can see, but alas, thats how it is."

huh?

any and all info as to how i can set-up the zoom f4 as i described my needs in the above post would be greatly appreciated.
thumbs up.

rob
smalltalk productions/nyc
 
Rob,

Sorry if I missed something and this is wrong headed. If you are recording audio to the F4 and using a DSLR for video, you don't need tone at all do you? Audio recording to a dslr is probably not what you should be doing IMHO. Are you recording a scratch track and using a clapper to sync?

I do record to cam using a mixer, but my cam has a line level in setting and will record in 24/48 so the recorded audio is pretty good. Setup is easy with the tone from a SD302.

Regards,
Grant

Grant
 
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