Why so much Nastiness here? Really unnecessary!

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I have been a DVXer for a long time and I'm about to hit my 5000th post and I have only gotten into it twice since 2007 and both times the Mods jumped right in and killed it. With so many people going back and forth 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, I find it almost impossible to mute all nastiness but the mods have a strange way of popping up when things get way out of control. props to them.

I have never met another member in person and I consider several of them my friends.
 
Wilbur - there's a difference between respect and walking on eggshells. I think if you look over many post in film fest sections on individual threads after the fest if open for viewing, you see a lot of "really liked it" or "that was so good" when in all actuality it was an incomprehensible story not told very well. There are only a few "straight talkers" who say it how it is without spite. I'm use to giving good credit where credit is due, and even to those who I really like here on the boards, I can tell them... uh, no, it didn't really work, your actor was over the top.

Better they hear how it is, than a "love fest" where everything is perfect. That's what I'm trying to say.

When I first came on here the mods made sure I was okay. I actually had a stalker almost from the get-go that they had to get off my back. I think that's why a lot of girls hide under androgenic user names so they don't get picked on or stalked or whatever. So believe it or not, girls here have to put up with some crap that guys don't, but that's how it is in a sandbox full of guys.

Anyone wanting to get into this industry, guess what, you will get spit on, humiliated on set, etc. Saying that, however, here on this forum, thick skin is only needed when work is being critique, whether its in FX forum or User films of Film fests. You have to learn not to be defensive and "take" what you want from the critique and learn to throw the rest away.

In Writer's Bootcamp, famous screenwriting work shop in Santa Monica, when our outline was critiqued by the class, we were not allowed to say a single word in defense to the script. You had to listen and take notes. So for those that spew back, listen, take notes, learn.
 
Charli said:
Wilbur - there's a difference between respect and walking on eggshells. I think if you look over many post in film fest sections on individual threads after the fest if open for viewing, you see a lot of "really liked it" or "that was so good" when in all actuality it was an incomprehensible story not told very well. There are only a few "straight talkers" who say it how it is without spite. I'm use to giving good credit where credit is due, and even to those who I really like here on the boards, I can tell them... uh, no, it didn't really work, your actor was over the top.

Better they hear how it is, than a "love fest" where everything is perfect. That's what I'm trying to say.

When I first came on here the mods made sure I was okay. I actually had a stalker almost from the get-go that they had to get off my back. I think that's why a lot of girls hide under androgenic user names so they don't get picked on or stalked or whatever. So believe it or not, girls here have to put up with some crap that guys don't, but that's how it is in a sandbox full of guys.

Anyone wanting to get into this industry, guess what, you will get spit on, humiliated on set, etc. Saying that, however, here on this forum, thick skin is only needed when work is being critique, whether its in FX forum or User films of Film fests. You have to learn not to be defensive and "take" what you want from the critique and learn to throw the rest away.

In Writer's Bootcamp, famous screenwriting work shop in Santa Monica, when our outline was critiqued by the class, we were not allowed to say a single word in defense to the script. You had to listen and take notes. So for those that spew back, listen, take notes, learn.
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Meh.
There's massive difference between a controlled critique group and an open forum flame fest... I can totally see the merit in teaching students to accept constructive criticism but in an environment like this I think egg shells are a much better option!

I'm sure your focus group for writing would love no-script Noddy to lay into your personal character and pass his own personal taste as professional opinion - No? Me neither.

Thick skin is a last resort - it should not be a standard operating procedure!

I also understand your point on not being defensive but unfortunately most Creatives are. We are a sensitive bunch... no diggedy no doubt!
Those who are here to give uber helpful input should be protected vigorously - If we lose people of the caliber of Bloom and Green because we expect them to grow thicker skin all we'll have around here are thick skinned ignorami ripping each other to threads...er I mean Shreds.

I envy your thick skin, I still fight that horrid feeling in my gut when I see a nasty review of my stuff... making a movie is a pouring out of one's soul for the whole world to see. (I even post here anon because I don;t feel safe to use my real name).
I guess it's just my hope that we could have one place where the critics do the egg shell dance and respectfully, sensitively deliver their advice and critique!

If the objective of criticism is truly to uplift and inspire, then eggshells will be a small sacrifice to see new talent confidently pursue their dreams.

It is the barrage of negative criticism that keeps most uber talented folks hiding in their box. Most will go no further than buying a camera and trolling these forums... we need to change that!

I talk too much.
P.S.
Damn stalkers. I stalk my wife all the time. She's a hottie, can't help myself!
 
It's about tact. Sandwiching a constructive criticism between two honest compliments is one method. Now I'm hungry.
 
mcgeedigital said:
Exactly.

You don't get better by people telling you where you did something RIGHT.
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But people don't get better by being publicly humiliated either.
Criticism must be constructive and thoughtful - if the purpose is to help someone become better at what they do, then the criticism must be put in such a way that the person can easily receive it. If the purpose is just to selfishly share your disagreement with their way of doing things then it's called 'flaming'.
 
Wilbur Eddings said:
But people don't get better by being publicly humiliated either.
Criticism must be constructive and thoughtful - if the purpose is to help someone become better at what they do, then the criticism must be put in such a way that the person can easily receive it. If the purpose is just to selfishly share your disagreement with their way of doing things then it's called 'flaming'.
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I agree with you.
 
Wilbur - the hardest thing for a writer is to hear these words, "I don't get it" and the best thing a write can hear is "I want to read more." Mostly you'll hear the first phrase when you start out as a screenwriter. Scripts are our "babies" just like films are "babies" to filmmakers. We take a lot of time and effort to create a character, a scene, a storyline that we all think is brilliant and BAM! We get hit with the cold hard truth that it isn't that good and here's WHY...

Screenwriters have to learn NOT to take it personally or we won't survive in this business. The hardest thing to do is to give your script over to someone and you have little to no control (no producer's title) and watch the story get crucified. "Knowing" movie with Nicolas Cage got changed so much that the writer didn't recognize the original story he wrote once it went up on screen. "Armored" however they kept the same writer so he was happy with the results. Doesn't always work that way.

So as screenwriters we have to let go and accept the criticism or we will never get better. We have to KNOW where the holes are in our story. If you don't tell us, then we'll think all is well. Same for a filmmaker. When I state on a thread, "I don't get it" I'm not trying to be mean, but I honestly did not get the story (and as I writer I usually get the story). So you have to take a step back away from the hard work and ask yourself - what was missing. What did I forget.

If you don't develop thick skin, you'll only go as far as the drive way.
 
Charli said:
Wilbur - the hardest thing for a writer is to hear these words, "I don't get it" and the best thing a write can hear is "I want to read more." Mostly you'll hear the first phrase when you start out as a screenwriter. Scripts are our "babies" just like films are "babies" to filmmakers. We take a lot of time and effort to create a character, a scene, a storyline that we all think is brilliant and BAM! We get hit with the cold hard truth that it isn't that good and here's WHY...

Screenwriters have to learn NOT to take it personally or we won't survive in this business. The hardest thing to do is to give your script over to someone and you have little to no control (no producer's title) and watch the story get crucified. "Knowing" movie with Nicolas Cage got changed so much that the writer didn't recognize the original story he wrote once it went up on screen. "Armored" however they kept the same writer so he was happy with the results. Doesn't always work that way.

So as screenwriters we have to let go and accept the criticism or we will never get better. We have to KNOW where the holes are in our story. If you don't tell us, then we'll think all is well. Same for a filmmaker. When I state on a thread, "I don't get it" I'm not trying to be mean, but I honestly did not get the story (and as I writer I usually get the story). So you have to take a step back away from the hard work and ask yourself - what was missing. What did I forget.

If you don't develop thick skin, you'll only go as far as the drive way.
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Like I said.. i envy your thick skin.
My thin skin has gotten me out of the driveway and out to the mall... mostly because I walk on eggshells around people, freely hand out respect and honor and thus get a lot of favor and opportunity. I have noted that people seldom care about your knowledge, they mostly care about how you make them feel...

I do see your point about being thick skinned and honor you for your ability to take so much (it appears consistent) criticism on your work. You are a far stronger person than I am.

I stick to my guns on forum etiquette though. Respect and honor go a long way!
Ye olde "Teaspoon of sugar... helps the medicine go down" *sing along now* "medicine go down..." "medicine go dowwwn"

P.S. I very passionately use my power as a producer to fire people who lack respect for their fellow cast and crew... Humiliating people is a deal breaker for me.
So you are chatting to a very biased man.
 
An example... Here's a review I posted last fest.

Michael Anthony Horrigan said:
While I liked this I have to point out that the scene with her looking crazy and turning the light on and off.... Fatal Attraction! :)

Good stuff though. She was pretty crazy. Maybe showed it a little too often though. Pretty good acting overall actually, pacing could be tightened up a bit. Very nice short.

MAH
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I could have phrased it like this...

Wow, you really ripped off Fatal Attraction and your lead actress was way over the top at times. The pacing was also brutally slow, I almost fell asleep. Better luck next time.
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I'm not saying that I felt like writing the negative example, I didn't. Im just saying that there is a right and wrong way to give criticism. Some people feel like they have to be rude to get their point across.
 
Finnegan said:
The professionalism on this forum has dropped off quite rapidly.
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That's because there is an ever increasing ratio of non-professional users. The change in tone is merely reflective of the user base. The sense of entitlement, not just here on this forum, is becoming nearly unbearable. People seem to feel like when they post here they are ENTITLED to a speedy, and accurate response. People post work here, good or bad, and REAL pro's are loathe to answer. I watched a couple films from the last fest. Those were the very first Fest films I had ever seen. I don't even frequent the threads.

People ask for criticism. You try to give it to them, and they rail against it. Why bother? People like Bloom do good work, and some not so good work. BFD. We all do. Anyone who's been around here for a while has seen B. Green and I go at it numerous times. But I consider him a friend and we have had some truly fun and EPIC exchanges via PM. That's what pro's do. And it's what filmmakers do.

I get the distinct impression that 95% of the people on this site have never actually made anything other than test videos. I didn't see the rip on the AF100 thread. Frankly, if I was Bloom or whoever was the party that got ripped, I'd tell the fool(s) to get stuffed. I always find it funny that it's the people who've done the least who criticize the loudest. People who've actually DONE something understand the struggles involved.

I'm done.
 
The city I live in recently decided to re-brand itself as a creative center, and begin actively supporting the arts community here, I was asked to chair a film committee, and was tasked with three short-term goals: to bring together any interested producers in the area, to get the state film commission involved, and to organize an on-going film festival. Jobs 2 & 3 were a breeze, but bringing together area producers has proven to be a nasty piece of business. I won't go into all the ugly details, but some of the 'tudes I have encountered have been amazing. I'm not sure what it is that makes people crazy, but if they sold 'em at WalMart, some people wold have two of them.
And yes -- the less work they've done, the wackier they are......
 
I was considering opening a thread similar to this last night, but decided against it. Guess I have my opportunity now.

I'll call this an open letter to all administration:

I have browsed DVXuser for quite some time, even prior to joining and have seen the ups and downs. There was of course, a time of professionalism and I'm fairly certain that time is gone. I posted a thread a couple years ago about people sugarcoating their answers and not ever properly critiquing anyone's work. While that hasn't changed, we now have two extremes - giving critiques to make people feel better, or to tear them apart with no constructive points.

We noticed the increase in negative attitude when the DSLR revolution happened. Since then, I feel like it has spiraled out of control completely. While this is a technical forum, the last few months have more than proved that DVXusers as a whole, can NOT handle footage from unfinished cameras.

It's fairly obvious if you just look at the two camps of individuals:

Camp A:

"Look what I found! [insert link to footage of unreleased camera]"

Camp A Followers:

"Wow, incredible, breathtaking footage!"

Camp B:

"Eh..look at those blown out highlights, that terrible aliasing....wait for the Scarlet to come out."

Camp A and B followers now proceed to fight for at least 20 pages before a moderator shuts it down. But in all honesty, what does shutting the thread down or banning a couple individuals do? Let's be serious - there are now over a million (right?) users on DVXuser...one or two being banned doesn't fix the problem.

What I propose may sound ridiculous for most of you, but I truly believe it will significantly aide in reducing the number of negative posts we have here.

DO NOT LET FOOTAGE FROM UNRELEASED CAMERAS BE POSTED ON DVXUSER.

DO NOT CREATE A SUB-FORUM UNTIL THE CAMERA IS RELEASED.

IF THERE IS TO BE TECHNICAL DISCUSSION REGARDING THE NEW CAMERA, KEEP IT IN ONE THREAD.

Don't believe that it will work? Keep heading down the same path, with immature members that have no respect for the working professionals. Think the working professionals will stick around? Highly unlikely.

Kegan
 
I think it's to be expected. As the forum grows so does the bitchiness and so does the good things. Take a look at Reduser, there's a lot of bitchiness of there at times and also a lot less non professionals.
The real name policy they have there seems to help a bit.
 
J Davis said:
I think it's to be expected. As the forum grows so does the bitchiness and so does the good things. Take a look at Reduser, there's a lot of bitchiness of there at times and also a lot less non professionals.
The real name policy they have there seems to help a bit.
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You notice how most of the pros here already use their real names...?
 
I expect all of you to make your way to the FictionFEST sub-forum in mid-March to watch a few shorts and offer up your honest, tactfully composed, constructive appraisals of each film's successes and shortcomings. See you there! :)

on a more serious note, I've been here a long time, and this is not the first time things have gotten ugly. and it's not the first time people have expressed nostalgia for how things used to be. But each wave of negativity is always met with this kind of overwhelming support by the community to set things right. There are a lot more of us then there are of them. And you can help things move much more efficiently by reporting posts to a Mod, rather than retaliating in the thread. Given the scale of the attention around Philip's thread yesterday, I was surprised to note that only one person reported an objectionable post from it. Others saw fit to further derail the thread by countering objectionable posts rather than continuing to discuss the merits of the footage and the AF100's potential.

Please.... PLEEEEAAASE... help this community thrive by reporting posts. I know it's not as gratifying as telling someone off, but the latter is much more likely to get you banned as well.
 
I think requiring users to use their real name as their user name could go a long way. It seems to help keep the level of professionalism in check on REDuser.net and similar forums simply because using your real name does make you a little bit more accountable for your words here on the internet, where anonymity reigns. I don't think you have to go as far as not allowing footage from unreleased cameras be posted, or similar measures. Despite what happened with Bloom's thread, there was a considerable amount of good technical and artistic discussion about the video that was probably more than resourceful for a lot of people who are making decisions about whether or not the camera is for them.
 
I really like the fact that dvxuser has sections for script writing, business, acting etc as well as all the technical stuff. This really separates it from a place like reduser which is very technical.
There is a side of me that indulges in the tech stuff, almost to the detriment of my writing - so I am glad for the diversity here. Actually I discovered dvxuser because of reduser and now I spend more time here.

Because of dvxuser's larger diverse scope, it attracts more people so a real name policy might hinder this. For example an actor or beginner film maker may join under a faux name then later change it to their real one
as they become more involved.
 
There is no longer a healthy balance on the right brain/left brain teeter-totter that was DVXuser. Now there a tech-obsessed fat kid and a bunch of us screaming airborne creative types...
 
on egg-shells... that's not what we're trying to say here....

I've seen some great discussions between two highly intelligent people that were on opposite sides in their viewpoint. I've seen them from time to time here, and on reduser, etc, etc... They were passionate, engaged, but they remained respectful to one another.

The point is... not egg-shells, but mutual respect. Disagreeing without being disagreeable. Again, it's not about the opinions, it's about the attitudes. We can't have a utopia where everyone is knowledgeable and gets along, but we can strive for that. And, we are (in the camera discussion sections anyways) demanding that people who wish to post here take the time to frame their post in a way that is respectful to this community, and not some stream of consciousness posting that is heavy on emotion and light on substance. We strive to have the most professional, respectful, and fun atmosphere we can. Obviously, that is a difficult task, but doesn't mean we shouldn't demand it from our membership, and that our membership shouldn't demand it from themselves....

And, don't feed trolls. If someone says something that's a bit knifey, don't engage back... ignore... move on... report if necessary. A lot of noise can be headed off at the pass by just not engaging the noisier members...
 
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