Why not use PMD-620s instead of wireless system?

[olgak]

I just thought of one, sort of. The Zoom h4n has power on the 1/8" connector on the back. But that is a stereo plug, so can you stick a mono lav looking for Plug-In-Power into it?

of course ;-)
if you do wire it correct

 

[olgak]

Not sure where your numbers are coming from (not arguing but numbers with out some reference would give them more weight). That said 20% I would not consider "drastic", 50% might be "drastic". So maybe it's just a difference in viewpoint.
What we agree on is that Phantom is going to pull more power. The recorder has to boost the battery voltage to a phantom level (a lot of the small recorders don't go all the way to 48V), and then the mic brings that voltage back down to what the capsule actually wants. The fewer conversions the lower the power drain.

This came up in another thread, but you can't just assume that the wiring is correct just because the plug fits. Consumer wired lavs will almost certainly be correct for "plug-in-power, but that is not the case for "professional" mics. And there can be bad consequences applying power to the wrong wires.
Your right that a lower than desired voltage to the mic (assuming the wiring is all correct) will lower the mics SPL handling ability and will also make it noisier, if it's too far below it just won't work. On the other hand if it's too high it might burn out the mic (not really that likely, since most modern electronics is fairly well protected against small mistakes).

But even if it's just noisier, is that really better than having to take a break to change batteries after four hours? It's not the trade off I would make.

Any" professional" mic ( professional is when you get money for , armature when you get nothing , so dpa can be amateur mic while cheap Chinese brand could be professional device ) usually ( we are talking electret capsule mics ) comes without any connector at all - aka pig tail ,and could be wired almost for any mic input which could supply minimum working voltage .
Electret mics works normally from 1.5 to 10v , some need more the 1.5 . 100% of plug power not supply more then 5 v , so there is no any danger to destroy the mic .
Microphone preams equipped with phantom power would be always more noisy then the same without ,
phantom adds noise to the circuit .

Does it worth to replace the batteries or work more hours ?
Why to compromise you can do it in the same time placing 3.7 lithium battery in serial to the input if it doesn't supply enough voltage.
;-)
By the way , my numbers are on the betetr side as i could show it in much darker collors

sanken48 to bias converter takes 2 ma , the battery module which powered by 48 ph almost twice , the mic allon o.3ma
the best work with 3v minimum but you can work with 1,5 v as well loosing a bit of the s/n ratio .

 

[Noiz2]

Any" professional" mic ( professional is when you get money for , armature when you get nothing , so dpa can be amateur mic while cheap Chinese brand could be professional device ) usually ( we are talking electret capsule mics ) comes without any connector at all - aka pig tail ,and could be wired almost for any mic input which could supply minimum working voltage .
Electret mics works normally from 1.5 to 10v , some need more the 1.5 . 100% of plug power not supply more then 5 v , so there is no any danger to destroy the mic .
Microphone preams equipped with phantom power would be always more noisy then the same without ,
phantom adds noise to the circuit .

Does it worth to replace the batteries or work more hours ?
Why to compromise you can do it in the same time placing 3.7 lithium battery in serial to the input if it doesn't supply enough voltage.
;-)
By the way , my numbers are on the betetr side as i could show it in much darker collors

sanken48 to bias converter takes 2 ma , the battery module which powered by 48 ph almost twice , the mic allon o.3ma
the best work with 3v minimum but you can work with 1,5 v as well loosing a bit of the s/n ratio .

If we are going to get picky that would be "professional lav", you don't see non lav's come with pigtails ;~)

I have a hard time understanding why adding DC to the mic lines would add noise. And since almost all the mics used in film work need power it's kind of a mute point. If your point is that the voltage converters are noisy then it would depend a lot on the converter, and if there actually is one. I have a Black Audio mic pre that used no converter. It provides phantom with 5, 9V batteries. Those batteries last essentially their shelf life.
Personally I haven't seen a big drop in battery life with phantom on, but that is just personal experience and mostly in FX recording. Production is a bit different in it's demands so YMMD.

The whole work VS battery change is I think not much of a point. To make that an issue you would have to be working a shoot that was one continuous take that lasted longer than your batteries with phantom but not longer than your batteries with out phantom. In your earlier example that would be a continuous take from four to five hours log. IF that is what your doing then it's a point. Since most people won't be doing that it's kind of not a point.

I think the real point here is that one needs to know what your doing and plan accordingly. There isn't just one answer that fits all situations.

What was the OP's question???

The reason to not use a recorder planted on an actor is that you have no idea if you got a decent take till you get it off them and play back. If your job is to get decent sound that is a pretty big gamble.

 

[olgak]

QUOTE=Noiz2;2170973]If we are going to get picky that would be "professional lav", you don't see non lav's come with pigtails ;~)


pzms ;-)
we are talking lavs , but i can take any akg blue line capsules , sennheiser me 66 shotgun tube ,rode ntg 2 and make it pig tail ;-)



I have a hard time understanding why adding DC to the mic lines would add noise.


dc to dc converters add noise, for classical music recordings usually preamp have 3 different voltage supplies , any other way is compromise .


And since almost all the mics used in film work need power it's kind of a mute point. If your point is that the voltage converters are noisy then it would depend a lot on the converter, and if there actually is one. I have a Black Audio mic pre that used no converter. It provides phantom with 5, 9V batteries. Those batteries last essentially their shelf life.


depends if the same batteries used to power 17v and 5v , if so it......;-)


Personally I haven't seen a big drop in battery life with phantom on, but that is just personal experience and mostly in FX recording. Production is a bit different in it's demands so YMMD.


Depends on your power source , if it small like handy recorders or even mix pre you loose allot




The whole work VS battery change is I think not much of a point. To make that an issue you would have to be working a shoot that was one continuous take that lasted longer than your batteries with phantom but not longer than your batteries with out phantom. In your earlier example that would be a continuous take from four to five hours log. IF that is what your doing then it's a point. Since most people won't be doing that it's kind of not a point.


We did much longer shoot without ability replace the batteries - we used ext source ( zfr recorder )



I think the real point here is that one needs to know what your doing and plan accordingly. There isn't just one answer that fits all situations.


never


What was the OP's question???


if he could run recorder with lav instead using wireless , i say he can , i day he can loose the power plug and have more time using
bias to power the mic , less weight , more running time

The reason to not use a recorder planted on an actor is that you have no idea if you got a decent take till you get it off them and play back. If your job is to get decent sound that is a pretty big gamble.

its not my shoot , i dint need to make the decisions , i only supply the best way he can do it without use wireless





[/QUOTE]

 

[sonidista]

of course ;-)
if you do wire it correct

you can also buy a little 1/8" Mono to Stereo adapter and put it between the mono mic and the stereo jack.

 

[Noiz2]

Depends on your power source , if it small like handy recorders or even mix pre you loose allot

Actually the MixPre is one thing I was talking about. I get 5-6 hours with 48V phantom.

We did much longer shoot without ability replace the batteries - we used ext source ( zfr recorder )

But in that case you would have to change batteries in the recorder anyway (in the scenario we have been talking about).

if he could run recorder with lav instead using wireless , i say he can , i day he can loose the power plug and have more time using
bias to power the mic , less weight , more running time

Actually it was Why not use a recorder instead of wireless. If it was "can you" then I'm with you, you certainly can do it. There are catches but it can certainly work. And if your going to then by all means smaller, lighter are important. Except those rare shoots, anything over four or five hours of battery life should get you through the day. Since we are talking planting the recorder on the actor IF your just going to let it run all day as one huge file then longer battery life is going to be an issue. Of course a fast getaway car when post sees those files would also be a good thing ;~)

 

[olgak]

Actually the MixPre is one thing I was talking about. I get 5-6 hours with 48V phantom.

how much without ( i doubt you can get 6 hours with schoeps but let say you have a good watch )

1 mic ? , 2 mics ?
what brand ?
if i recall mix pre is around 1 w no phantom power , 2 schoepses add 0.4w - 40% more (probably more as the efficiency for 48v is not 100%)


But in that case you would have to change batteries in the recorder anyway (in the scenario we have been talking about).
not necessary - depends on the recorder and how long is the shoot



Actually it was Why not use a recorder instead of wireless. If it was "can you" then I'm with you, you certainly can do it. There are catches but it can certainly work. And if your going to then by all means smaller, lighter are important. Except those rare shoots, anything over four or five hours of battery life should get you through the day. Since we are talking planting the recorder on the actor IF your just going to let it run all day as one huge file then longer battery life is going to be an issue. Of course a fast getaway car when post sees those files would also be a good thing ;~

2 recorders and 2 mics setup could be 400usd , 2 wireless with same mics - 1400

if it works ,you have vacation in Caribbean

 

[Noiz2]

Actually the MixPre is one thing I was talking about. I get 5-6 hours with 48V phantom.

how much without ( i doubt you can get 6 hours with schoeps but let say you have a good watch )

1 mic ? , 2 mics ?
what brand ?
if i recall mix pre is around 1 w no phantom power , 2 schoepses add 0.4w - 40% more (probably more as the efficiency for 48v is not 100%)


But in that case you would have to change batteries in the recorder anyway (in the scenario we have been talking about).
not necessary - depends on the recorder and how long is the shoot



Actually it was Why not use a recorder instead of wireless. If it was "can you" then I'm with you, you certainly can do it. There are catches but it can certainly work. And if your going to then by all means smaller, lighter are important. Except those rare shoots, anything over four or five hours of battery life should get you through the day. Since we are talking planting the recorder on the actor IF your just going to let it run all day as one huge file then longer battery life is going to be an issue. Of course a fast getaway car when post sees those files would also be a good thing ;~

2 recorders and 2 mics setup could be 400usd , 2 wireless with same mics - 1400

if it works ,you have vacation in Caribbean

Well, two Oktava's with 48V phantom, should be close to Schoeps since the Oktava is basically a 1930's Schoeps.

Were just having fun with the scenario but ... You had the recorder going 5 hours and said you had a shoot that went a lot longer than that. In that case you would have had to change the batteries.

My point was that IF you stop recording between takes, your not going to usually go through more than four or five hours of recording.

yes $$ is definitely a reason to go recorder. Also they are useful for other recording tasks while the wireless is pretty much a one trick pony.

I had the impression from the "why not" part of the OP's question that he was asking about the down sides to using a recorder.

 

[bricksnmortar]

Ok, so I've ordered a Sennheiser G3 and I will look around for a better lav like a used MKE2 or B6 for it (Sankens seem rare and expensive used on ebay). I agree with everyone's feedback that I'd prefer to have sound with good basics like levels rather than try to squeeze the last drop out of quality. Even Zaxcom make a product to do wired recording (ZFR series) for when there is too much interference.
Now if anyone could point me at an intro to Wordclock vs Timecode for dummies that would be awesome. It seems like wordclock just works with audio devices and makes sure they are all recording the same time data, whereas timecode does the cameras as well with a larger amount of info. So if you want to dump audio and video into Premiere and get it to sync up, you'd use timecode?
Thanks to all above posters for the info.

 

[Noiz2]

Time Code is used for getting things to the right place, providing you have matching TC. Word Clock is a much higher frequency signal that is used to lock digital signals together. TC only goes down to the subframe (1/80 or 1/100 of a frame, depending). That is way too crude for digital sync. Word clock runs at the sample rate (or in the case of "Supper Clock" 256X the sample rate).

You don't need either to sync digital files. TC was king when you had to lock to a tape deck. But you can use TC to match up your files IF you have matching TC on both.

If you were using say digital tape decks you would use TC to get you to the right place and WordClock to keep the decks locked in sync.

 

[bricksnmortar]

Ok thanks Noiz. So Wordclock effectively replaces the device's internal clock.
I thought it would be as easy as connect all devices to a timecode master, each device combines the audio/video its recorded with the timecode for that frame, then in post the software just lines up the time stamps for all video and audio inputs and away you go?

 

[olgak]

for single recording device you don't need Tc at all for synchronization
if you run several devices and don"thave Tc jam , you can use plural eyes soft on FCP to get them all in sync using your camera mic or any other source which collects the same audio.
you will probably have a drift between your camera and recorder but it could be fixed during the editing .
if you use something as d5 dxlr , the longest clip you will have is 12 minutes ,so i have doubt if you will have any drift issues .
if you have very long takes , you can chop your video file and give the computer place the audio with minimum drift on each part .
be sure that audio file will have the same sample Tc sample rate when you load them in other wise you can find your self editing in 29.97 while the file might be imported as 30.
to be sure you have the right stamp on non Tc file , use sound device Wave agent free soft

 

[bricksnmortar]

thx olgak
using Canon 5d2, t2i (550d) with 2 wireless into a DR100 and a shotgun into a HDP2

 

[olgak]

you welcome