Why not use PMD-620s instead of wireless system?

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bricksnmortar

New member
I'm soon going to film some promo video of product demonstrations with a lav on each of the two talking heads and an NTG3. I'm considering buying Sennheiser G3 wireless but thought why not attach a small recorder to the talent (like the Marantz) and run the lav to that? Will use a clapper and sync it in post. Is this a bad idea, I don't hear of people doing this?
 
how are you going to monitor the recording? what if the mic comes unclipped, what if its rubbing something, tons of what ifs. not worth it and a waste of time and resources. if you can't afford to buy wireless rent. G3 kits go for less than $40/day.
 
thanks for the reply. Its not so much about the cost as the quality. I often hear people say that wireless is the biggest quality weak spot in their audio chain, so I thought maybe it might work better (quality wise) to have the lav cabled direct.
I take your point about making sure you're actually recording.
 
It's not so much about making sure you're actually recording but listening to WHAT you're recording. The red light is on the meters are moving whether you're getting great audio or crap audio. Most sound guys (myself included) will say wired lavs are better than wireless lavs, and that booming the shot (provided that camera angles allow it) provides the most natural sounding dialog. Would you shoot a scene without having a viewfinder on the camera? That's what monitoring the audio feed is. It's the sound person's viewfinder. Moving a boom a few inches can drastically affect the tonal characteristics and levels when grabbing dialog. Moving a lav a few inches or to another location on the body has the same affect. Unless you're monitoring sound, you can't tell if the mic is picking up clothing noise, or changing in tone or level as the talent moves their head. It's much better to catch this while shooting, and do another take, than to find the problem in the editing suite.

So, from what I can see in your post, the biggest shortfall is not wired vs wireless, it's not addressing the need to monitor what's being recorded.

bricksnmortar said:
thanks for the reply. Its not so much about the cost as the quality. I often hear people say that wireless is the biggest quality weak spot in their audio chain, so I thought maybe it might work better (quality wise) to have the lav cabled direct.
I take your point about making sure you're actually recording.
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bricksnmortar said:
I'm soon going to film some promo video of product demonstrations with a lav on each of the two talking heads and an NTG3. I'm considering buying Sennheiser G3 wireless but thought why not attach a small recorder to the talent (like the Marantz) and run the lav to that? Will use a clapper and sync it in post. Is this a bad idea, I don't hear of people doing this?
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http://tascam.com/product/dr-2d/specifications/
that one has dualtrack recording to prevent overload if you go that way
 
gpforet said:
It's not so much about making sure you're actually recording but listening to WHAT you're recording. The red light is on the meters are moving whether you're getting great audio or crap audio. Most sound guys (myself included) will say wired lavs are better than wireless lavs, and that booming the shot (provided that camera angles allow it) provides the most natural sounding dialog. Would you shoot a scene without having a viewfinder on the camera? That's what monitoring the audio feed is. It's the sound person's viewfinder. Moving a boom a few inches can drastically affect the tonal characteristics and levels when grabbing dialog. Moving a lav a few inches or to another location on the body has the same affect. Unless you're monitoring sound, you can't tell if the mic is picking up clothing noise, or changing in tone or level as the talent moves their head. It's much better to catch this while shooting, and do another take, than to find the problem in the editing suite.

So, from what I can see in your post, the biggest shortfall is not wired vs wireless, it's not addressing the need to monitor what's being recorded.
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not really , we where running zaxcom ZFR recorders that way on shoot where the soundman was not present or was not able reach the lectro sqmv feed ( 90% of the time )
 
Am I reading this right? Zaxcom ZFR, Lectro SQMV, and no sound guy present? Or able to "reach the lectro feeds"? Guess I'll start looking at truck driving schools.

olgak said:
not really , we where running zaxcom ZFR recorders that way on shoot where the soundman was not present or was not able reach the lectro sqmv feed ( 90% of the time )
Click to expand...
 
gpforet said:
Am I reading this right? Zaxcom ZFR, Lectro SQMV, and no sound guy present? Or able to "reach the lectro feeds"? Guess I'll start looking at truck driving schools.
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Yes, you are .
9 cameras chaising 2 people over very large city , life sucks, thats why we make money from other people troubles
;-)
 
If you can use cabled mics without and problems, then why add in the complication and unreliability of radios? A $2000 radio is almost as good as a $10 cable!
 
Makes me feel like its not a totally dopey idea ;-)
It would mean that I would have to go around to the talent, plug in some headphones for a little while, have a listen and hope that nothing too much changes during the shoot. Or that batteries run out etc.
I've got a COS-11 mic with xlr and a DR-100 which I could use as a test. Then buy the Senn G3 and maybe a slightly better mic than the kit (maybe even an MKE rather than the ME) and see what the difference is.
I guess if I had Lectro 400s, some more COS mics and an SD 744t it wouldn't be an issue!
 
Running the Sanken xlr ( its not just a plug , its 48 to bias 1,5 v converter) would rise your recorder power consumption drastically by using it phantom circuit .
To do it right , run the mic directly from the low power sours if you have one on your recorder - aka unbalance mic input - usually called plug in power socket
 
bricksnmortar said:
Makes me feel like its not a totally dopey idea ;-)
It would mean that I would have to go around to the talent, plug in some headphones for a little while, have a listen and hope that nothing too much changes during the shoot. Or that batteries run out etc.
I've got a COS-11 mic with xlr and a DR-100 which I could use as a test. Then buy the Senn G3 and maybe a slightly better mic than the kit (maybe even an MKE rather than the ME) and see what the difference is.
I guess if I had Lectro 400s, some more COS mics and an SD 744t it wouldn't be an issue!
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2 Zoom H-1 and 2 lavalieres from OST are 400 USD
http://www.oscarsoundtech.com/services.html
probably the best and cheapest solution for your idea
 
olgak said:
Running the Sanken xlr ( its not just a plug , its 48 to bias 1,5 v converter) would rise your recorder power consumption drastically by using it phantom circuit .
To do it right , run the mic directly from the low power sours if you have one on your recorder - aka unbalance mic input - usually called plug in power socket
Click to expand...

It is not likely to "drastically" change your battery life but it will take some away. The "plug in power" is not nec what the mic wants, depends on the mic. Also the "converter" is probably nothing more than some resistors and a couple of capacitors, that's what does the "conversion" in most condenser mics. I also kind of doubt that a recorder that has XLR's and phantom power also has an 1/8" with plug-in-power.

The point is that IF your mic can plug in directly that is the better choice but it's not a huge problem if it doesn't.
 
Phantom to bias converters steal about 2-6 ma for 48 v ( depends on circuit) , wile with 3V bias you pool about 0,3-0.5ma maximum .

So we're talking 200mw( average) or 1.5mw- at least 100 times more .
So if we are talking device which have let say 2 AA batteries, which are together 5.8w( 2.900x2x1.5)
and the efficiency is about 85% after voltage regulation and dc to dc up converters - you get about 5w.

Let say that the recording device pull 1wh ,so you stay with 4 hours instead 5,while with plug in you have almost 5 .
20% - big difference , with 2 mics its almost half the time :-)

The only thing that you need to investigate is if the plug in power match the minimum voltage specifications of the mic .
going under the minimum ,will add some noise and will lower the microphone spl but you will end your session without batteries would die in the middle :-)
but maybe i wrong :-)
 
Not sure where your numbers are coming from (not arguing but numbers with out some reference would give them more weight). That said 20% I would not consider "drastic", 50% might be "drastic". So maybe it's just a difference in viewpoint.
What we agree on is that Phantom is going to pull more power. The recorder has to boost the battery voltage to a phantom level (a lot of the small recorders don't go all the way to 48V), and then the mic brings that voltage back down to what the capsule actually wants. The fewer conversions the lower the power drain.

This came up in another thread, but you can't just assume that the wiring is correct just because the plug fits. Consumer wired lavs will almost certainly be correct for "plug-in-power, but that is not the case for "professional" mics. And there can be bad consequences applying power to the wrong wires.
Your right that a lower than desired voltage to the mic (assuming the wiring is all correct) will lower the mics SPL handling ability and will also make it noisier, if it's too far below it just won't work. On the other hand if it's too high it might burn out the mic (not really that likely, since most modern electronics is fairly well protected against small mistakes).

But even if it's just noisier, is that really better than having to take a break to change batteries after four hours? It's not the trade off I would make.
 
This discussion, though interesting may practically be of no use. Are there any recorders that have 48V phantom AND 1/8" Plug-In-Power? I've never seen one. If not then it doesn't really matter which is the better connection because you won't have the choice.
 
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I just thought of one, sort of. The Zoom h4n has power on the 1/8" connector on the back. But that is a stereo plug, so can you stick a mono lav looking for Plug-In-Power into it?
 
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