Why not Blu-ray...?

M

Micron

Member
Hi all,

I happen to think that the P2 is a great idea which will continue to become more attractive in value and reliability. But having just read this announcment by Hitachi that it will release a blu-ray camcorder in about a couple of years, I hope that Panasonic will also think of similar moves in the future. In future models, in addition to the P2, Panny can replace the tape recording mechanism with a blu-ray recorder.

What do you guys think?

Mike
 
The Sarlacc said:
flash media > moving parts/lasers
Click to expand...

I agree. But the beauty of Blu-ray is that it has a number of advantages. First, even if Hitachi doesn't produce Blu-ray within a year, I still think doing so within two years would give it a sensible alternative to what are on the market today, namely tapes or regular recordable dvds. So if Panasonic were to implement a similar solution, it might be able to give us a 25 GB --since the full size Blu-ray is or will shortly reach 50 BG soon-- recording media. Second, recordable Blu-ray has the potential of turning the HVX 200 or similar future cameras into worry-free camcorders in the sense that the owner wouldn't have to worry about running out P2s or hard drive space while on the road or in situations where the need to record goes far beyond the anticipated time frame. Finally, if recording to P2 and Blu-ray simultaneously becomes feasible, Blu-ray disks, provided that the price goes down, might become a quick and relatively straight-forward short or medium term archival medium of choice.

Mike
 
Panasonic is a member of the blu-ray association, but with that said, I don't think there's a chance in hades that they'll put out an optical disc camera. Panasonic Consumer Products probably will, for the AVC-HD line, but Panasonic Broadcast wouldn't even think twice about doing that.

Optical disc is an interim storage solution, and won't be the future. Solid state is the future, whether SD cards for AVC-HD, P2 cards for DVCPRO-HD, or CompactFlash cards for the Thomson Infinity, or RED-RAM or REDFLASH (or whatever it's called!) for the Red.

The BBC is conducting a year-long test of tapeless systems because they're committed to going tapeless. They took one look at XDCAM-HD and its blu-ray disc and said "no thanks, no optical disc for us!" They're ruled out XDCAM right off, and are instead testing Infinity and P2 for a year.
 
Hi Barry,

I agree with your assertion that [o]ptical disc is an interim storage solution, and won't be the future." But what about for recording in the consumer or even prosumer markets? I realize that hard disk and solid memory media will begin to be utilized in many, if not most, pro video cameras. And this is a good thing. One of the reasons I found the HVX appealing and why I might end up getting the Red One sometime in the future has to do with the fact that I don't have to worry about tapes and all the associated hassles that come with it.

Having said that, I think a camcorder that can record to P2 or hard disk *and* Blu-ray or HD-DVD does strike me as something that can be beneficial in the consumer HD camcorder market for the foreseeable future. Let's assume that a camcorder, say, a consumer version of the HVX 200 becomes available next year. In fact, I'm not way off about Panny's HD venture into the consumer market as you can see here. Wouldn't Panny, Sony or Canon benefit by making these future camcorders capable of recording to more than one media?

I know this kind of a system would have come in handy for me more than two years ago when I spent the summer in Europe. If HD-DVD or Blu-ray based camcorders had been available then, I would have gladly recorded on them after running out of my laptop disk space. Even if I had the HVX 200 then, I would rather have recorded on a hi-def DVD disks than off-load my P2 and burn it to blank DVDs every night.

My question to you, given your extensive thoughts and expertise on the topic, is this: would you personally find it a step forward or simply a stop gap measure if the next crop of HD camcorders, including all prosumer camcorders from Sony, Canon and Panasonic included Blu-ray or HD-DVD, in addition to another solid media or whatever primary recording mechanisms they will have?

Mike
 
optical disc and blu-ray are both coming to the consumer market, from both Panasonic and Sony. The consumer divisions of both companies have announced that they'll be building AVC-HD camcorders recording to optical disc. And that they wish it were blu-ray today (for the increased capacity) but that for now it's 1.4gb mini-DVD.
 
They won't go the optical disk route either, they can build a physically smaller camcorder without an expensive optical drive and with higher recording capacity by using solid state memory.
 
Well, I'm sure we'll get a deck for archiving some things or for making single copies for clients, but round here we go through HD drives, the way crack heads in the hood go through those little glass tube flowers at the liquor store.. hehehe maybe they need to start selling hard drives there too!

Nope, I'd just assume keep popping 70 bucks for 250GB hard drives for a while to come until that holographic disc stuff is available for the people. Right now $14.95 to 24.95 to hold 25 GB and wait 90 minutes for a verified burn is just ridiculous. When the price comes way furter down, give me a call, but having Blu-Ray just won't help me score with hot chicks right this moment.

Of course thats just me...
 
Sorry but I would rather have interim than destructive. HDDs are getting better and flash memory will hopefully get cheaper but with new formats needing more space and with the professional workflow headed in the uncompressed direction, we are not all that close. I really hate people slamming optical technology. There is really no base for it. The BBC may have passed on it but when I am in the field I see XDCAMS all over the place.



ash =o)
 
you know what would be RAD.

And this is a pipe dream... but.

Replace the DV deck with a BR disc drive, and have the camera save the HD-Video stream to p2 first so its stable, then it can continuously trandsfer the non active card to BRdisc. making an incamera P2store.

plus if there is vibration the disc just wont write at that instant and when its back on track it can pick up where it left off.

That sould be super awesome. kinda like the P2 card acting as old school CD player shock protection.
 
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AshG said:
Sorry but I would rather have interim than destructive. HDDs are getting better and flash memory will hopefully get cheaper but with new formats needing more space and with the professional workflow headed in the uncompressed direction, we are not all that close. I really hate people slamming optical technology. There is really no base for it. The BBC may have passed on it but when I am in the field I see XDCAMS all over the place.



ash =o)
Click to expand...

Never seen a XDCam anywhere in the field. Only on Abel's showroom floor.

Not to say they aren't, but it just depends in which circles you run.

I'm not slamming optical technology.

a) I just don't want it in my camera.
b) blu-ray and hddvd are both bunk. Holographic storage is the next be all of optical storage.
 
AshG said:
Sorry but I would rather have interim than destructive. HDDs are getting better and flash memory will hopefully get cheaper but with new formats needing more space and with the professional workflow headed in the uncompressed direction, we are not all that close. I really hate people slamming optical technology. There is really no base for it. The BBC may have passed on it but when I am in the field I see XDCAMS all over the place.



ash =o)
Click to expand...

Slamming optical technology? Nope. We look forward to a Blu-Ray burner for doing single copies to go out to some of our more spendy clients, but Blu-Ray as a format for in the field, not here. I'm with Sarlacc 100% on the holographic front, especially for archival purposes. A 300GB holodisc is music to my ears.

But right now for my work in the field, y'all can take my P2 store out of my cold dead fingers. hehehe :Drogar-Love(DBG):

But I WILL slam hard on $24.95 for a 25 gig disc at Staples with no inket printable surface. "Newest thing" or not, it just doesn't instill a lot of enthusiasm for me in these new formats.

As for out in my field all I am seeing is DV, HDV being shot by some elite wannabes that think they are gods with their Z1s, and even some DVCPRO and BetaSP.

I'm sure Sony did a nice job with the XDCAM stuff I saw up at Pro Video and Tape But I have been put through the Sony racket before, with D2, 1 Inch, and so on. I've been hit with the 9-PIN cable for $500 bucks.

Yes, I know P2 and DVCpro are panasonics offerings, but when I went over all the XDCAM stuff at purchase time for us. I just felt that little chill down my spine all over again. What can I say.

I also just came back from the local geek shack with two Caviar 2500s for $90 bucks each. Thats going to give me over 400 minutes of redundant archival for less than $200.

So Ash I think optical stuff is great, I just think it has to go another direction than what is being served up on our dinner plates right now. At least from where I am sitting.

:bath:
 
TimurCivan said:
you know what would be RAD.

And this is a pipe dream... but.

Replace the DV deck with a BR disc drive, and have the camera save the HD-Video stream to p2 first so its stable, then it can continuously trandsfer the non active card to BRdisc. making an incamera P2store.

plus if there is vibration the disc just wont write at that instant and when its back on track it can pick up where it left off.

That sould be super awesome. kinda like the P2 card acting as old school CD player shock protection.
Click to expand...

That's a very sharp idea! But what I really would love to see is a holographic solid state P2 card. Of course I am probably smoking something too, but hey we can dream.

Actually, what I really would love to have right now, is a miniture HVX200. Something like the Sony A1U but with a single P2 slot and a way to tether to a firestore or powerbook if need be. And I'd love to have it shoot all the HVX modes. But then again Santa doesn't come in a sleigh.
 
Let me state that I am not particularly in love with optical acquisition. For me, the pipe dream is NON-DESTRUCTIVE solid state but we are 10+ years from that. Imagine 32GB cards that cost $32. I have the option to use that in an archival manner.

I dont think it is really fair to complain about the cost of the burnable BR discs, it is BRAND new tech and at $15 (the price MOST places online) for 25gb it is not bad at all. A year from now, that will be under $5. The prospect of 100GB optical back-up for $10 - $15 a year from now is pretty enticing.



ash =o)
 
Hi Ash,

You succinctly and effectively made the point I tried to make. I'm sure most of us are looking for a robust, durable recording and storage media that are also high capacity. The disagreement starts when we start focusing on the best options available for now and in next few years. I think we would do well not do dismiss optical disks as a recording and storage media for now and for the next few years.

I think what Hitachi is doing as seen here shouldn't be something we should dismiss. :thumbup:

Cheers,
Mike
 
It happened again today another hard drive packed up, that's 5 hard drives this year !!! 2 of the drives were only 2 months old ?? I don't trust my footage to hard drives any more unless they are mirrored even then i get a nerves twice.

Also DVD and BD is not a reliable way of backing up anything because of the TOC get one scratch in the wrong place and the disc is unreadable. At least with tape, half the tape can be destroyed and the other half can still be read.

I have also had bad batch of DVD's especially in the early years that played fine after burning but would not play a year later.

There must be a better and safer way of backup especially for p2.
 
For me the appeal of optical storage is the ability to hand over the footage to producers at the end of the day and go home...the big drawback of P2=time at the end of the day spent moving data.
 
Anything I shoot on P2 has an OTG drive in the budget. They get that HDD when I leave. Currently the only very solid back-up methods are very very expensive...



ash =o)
 
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