Why isn't the F3 more popular?

The problem lies when "your" post workflow is not yours at all. That is to say, when you are hired to shoot material but have no say over post, in terms of how the material is handled. I can't tell the editors on any of my DP jobs what NLE to use, what their workflow should or shouldn't be. I can (and do) recommend solutions, but if the post supervisor tells me that they can't afford X and Y, that's that. It's a reality of working in this industry vs playing; the departments are segregated and there are politically hurdles to overcome that often just aren't worth it.

I have shot maybe five RED jobs and each and every one was finished via the proxy Quicktimes used for the edit. They never went back to the R3D's to conform. Seems dumb, right? They simply didn't have the budget or time to do it "right" and it was always "good enough". Thankfully my exposures were close enough that I could color correct the footage adequately off the proxy files, but obviously not ideal.

There is one simple solution for narrative production that seems to be satisfactory for all parties: Alexa. Post likes it, I like it, the producers like it. The only stumbling block is the price of the package, but not a single producer I've worked with in the past year has denied that is the right way to go. Again, while the F3 served me well enough for season 1 of my show, the Alexa is that much better and easier to deal with in post. I have no doubt that the other manufacturers will emerge with a new generation of cameras that will give the current Alexa a run for the money (similar quality onboard recording codec, more integrated accessories)--but then the Alexa will move foward as well.

Smart and experienced producers take stock of which cameras are easier than others to work with both on set and in post and will have specific ideas of what they want to use next (inexperienced producers will tend to base their interests on hearsay and usually have their information wrong--how many times did I hear someone ask about the Canon D5?). The question "what camera are you thinking for this job" is generally posed to me as part of my interview process. Anecdotally, few are interested in using RED primarily because of the workflow. I'm not saying they are the majority, it's just who I happen to have been working for. Sometimes there are more specifics involved: for a feature I shot this year, we settled on Alexa very quickly (we both had it in mind) but when I pushed for ARRIRAW recording, I was told there was no way. ProRes444 it was. Eh, no biggie.
 
My simple answer:

1) Marketing - RED has the pull of some major players, and the attention of the young up and comers.
2) Resolution - In a world where 2K or 1080p has been around a while, a simple resolution difference is enough to grab some people's attention.
3) Style - RED has a punk rebel style to the whole company and attitude.
4) Sony - The company hasn't been much of a player in the mind of many for a while. They hear Sony and say "Who?"
5) RAW vs. Slog - RAW is easier to understand from a marketing standpoint, sLog just sounds odd and I don't think people grasp it easy enough.
6) Adobe - With Adobe's large push the last few years, RED has gotten more attention due to its ease of use with an NLE lots of folks are migrating over to.

I don't know...that's my perspective on things.
 
My simple answer:

1) Marketing - RED has the pull of some major players, and the attention of the young up and comers.
2) Resolution - In a world where 2K or 1080p has been around a while, a simple resolution difference is enough to grab some people's attention.
3) Style - RED has a punk rebel style to the whole company and attitude.
4) Sony - The company hasn't been much of a player in the mind of many for a while. They hear Sony and say "Who?"
5) RAW vs. Slog - RAW is easier to understand from a marketing standpoint, sLog just sounds odd and I don't think people grasp it easy enough.
6) Adobe - With Adobe's large push the last few years, RED has gotten more attention due to its ease of use with an NLE lots of folks are migrating over to.

I don't know...that's my perspective on things.


I'm sorry, but...what???

Sony is not much of a player? People say "Who?" to Sony? Are you serious?
I've been shooting with Sony cameras since I started my career in the 80s. So have tens of thousands of others. Who hasn't heard about Sony?
 
My simple answer:
4) Sony - The company hasn't been much of a player in the mind of many for a while. They hear Sony and say "Who?"

You can say allot of negative things about Sony and the list is long but for the most part all of the Sony cameras I have purchased to date have worked out of the box including the F3!
 
A lot of Red Epic owners who see that the Scarlet does nearly the same for roughly 1/4 of the price!!!

Not even close to true.

I leased out my scarlet after 3 months. I now own an Epic as well as a F3. The epic is 10x the camera for only 4x more.

I have no idea why the F3 isnt more popular. Sony is Awful at marketing to the younger up and coming digital folks, and they are even worse at marketing to their existing ENG base. The F3 is pound for pound the best camera on EARTH. Right now, for $13K, you get a 10bit 444, 13.5 stops range with SLOG, PL Mount Digitial cinema camera with a BASE rating of ISO1600. Look at that list.

I think what Sony did wrong, was provide pro level tools to people who aren't able to handle it. Most mid level, low level productions have NO IDEA what to do with 444, Slog, or LUTs. Hence why i think you're getting mediocre footage floating around. when treated properly the F3 will Bcam against an Alexa ANY day of the week.
 
I think what Sony did wrong, was provide pro level tools to people who aren't able to handle it. Most mid level, low level productions have NO IDEA what to do with 444, Slog, or LUTs.


i think it's the cost that scares most producers away. yes, they don't know what to do with it, but once you give them an idea of the additional data load and post, many don't really want to know.
 
From my limited use of the F3 I love that camera. I know it sounds trendy but it has a very filmic look that I like a lot. That's just the tip of the ice burg. The next incarnation will be epic. No pun intended.
 
From my limited use of the F3 I love that camera. I know it sounds trendy but it has a very filmic look that I like a lot. That's just the tip of the ice burg. The next incarnation will be epic. No pun intended.

Heck if they gave us the same camera (same sensor, same everything) with the viewfinder chopped off and internal ProRes recording for the same sort of price - that's all it'd need to be off-the-charts wonderful (for the price).
 
when treated properly the F3 will Bcam against an Alexa ANY day of the week.

Not to take anything away from the F3 but I am always hesitant to consider cameras from different manufacturers to be appropriately matched in an A and B cam configuration. It's a popular conceit from marketing materials, but given the differences in chips and processing, it's dodgy to me to think that two different cameras can be set side by side, pointing the same direction with different focal lengths and always deliver matching images (even considering heavy duty post work). That's my definition of B cam anyway--if one thinks of it as capturing B-roll or second unit type stuff, then sure, no harm no foul.
 
Not to take anything away from the F3 but I am always hesitant to consider cameras from different manufacturers to be appropriately matched in an A and B cam configuration. It's a popular conceit from marketing materials, but given the differences in chips and processing, it's dodgy to me to think that two different cameras can be set side by side, pointing the same direction with different focal lengths and always deliver matching images (even considering heavy duty post work). That's my definition of B cam anyway--if one thinks of it as capturing B-roll or second unit type stuff, then sure, no harm no foul.

This is done in a lot of feature films and you'd be very hard pressed to find any differences when actually watching the movie.
 
Shooting Red to ProRes (external recorder) as a normal practice is LOONEY! If you don't record R3D, you might as well shoot F3 and have a BETTER image. (I own and use both, so I know).
The absolute advantage of shooting with the Red is that is the great internal recording/format. Yes, Raw is better than SLOG. The struggle I have is: do my clients care or see any difference.
Choosing the right tool for YOUR gig is ultimately the challenge. I find myself often times looking for what might make me feel good or how the client may perceive the project based upon which toys I bring to the party.

The bottom line is most of the newer/best cameras produce stunning images when placed in the hands of competent users. For me, I am beginning to look at things that part-out the gear from the rest of the pack such as:
  • Build-quality: Sorry Sony, you suck lately (red is a tank, F3 is marginal, FS700 is Kmart-ish)
  • Ergonomics-Sony, does anyone who has ever even TOUCHED a camera help with the industrial design?
  • Future-proofing: again, Sony you SUCK! I paid full-coin for my SLOG, and now it's FREE!? Where's the love? (At least Red rewards early adopters) Red is already talking about Dragon sensor, while Sony is releasing new cameras (FS700) with vague and mystic "upgrade" 4K upgrades. No idea when, how much, or what it will do precisely.
  • Workflow: Yes, Red has a more laborious workflow, but they give you the tools for FREE! How many extras does one have to add with other solutions to actually make it productive?
  • Support: When's the last time you saw any Sony higher-ups post on any forums? Even if it's marketing related, I feel like I have the ear of someone. Even rogue-responses are better than NONE.
I suppose I could go on, but you get the idea. I am not a Red fanboy, and regularly choose my F3 over the Red, but I think the points I've outlined above are quite valid, and I hope I'm wrong and Sony is actually listening! :beer:
 
I recently bought a RED Rocket. Its expensive, about 4k to get it working, i have it in a Sonnet Echo Thunderbolt enclosure, and a Battle tested (ie used) Red Rocket, and a SAS card in the second slot in the enclosure. It lets me transcode off the card and download at the same time. Its fast efficient, and the client gets prores and RAW backups. Its really not too hard of a workflow once you actually use it. Yes it costs money, but considering the cost of an Epic, its par for the course.

Honestly, the F3 with a Cine Deck or Gemini is just as difficult to use workflow wise as a RED. The Cinedeck is HUGE and power hungry, not to mention glitchy. The Gemini, while small and conservative with power is recording uncompressed 444, which is a HUGE file size that needs to be transcoded to prores444 anyway if you want the benefits of 444 and still have manageable file sizes for the edit and post.

The F3 is a serious machine if youre willing to give it what it needs to function properly. That said, like almost everyhting, it needs quite a bit of work to get the best out of it.
 
  • Build-quality: Sorry Sony, you suck lately (red is a tank, F3 is marginal, FS700 is Kmart-ish)
  • Ergonomics-Sony, does anyone who has ever even TOUCHED a camera help with the industrial design?
  • Future-proofing: again, Sony you SUCK! I paid full-coin for my SLOG, and now it's FREE!? Where's the love? (At least Red rewards early adopters) Red is already talking about Dragon sensor, while Sony is releasing new cameras (FS700) with vague and mystic "upgrade" 4K upgrades. No idea when, how much, or what it will do precisely.
  • Workflow: Yes, Red has a more laborious workflow, but they give you the tools for FREE! How many extras does one have to add with other solutions to actually make it productive?
  • Support: When's the last time you saw any Sony higher-ups post on any forums? Even if it's marketing related, I feel like I have the ear of someone. Even rogue-responses are better than NONE.

very good points.
 
Timur, someone earlier in the thread mentioned that the Epic has either the same or more dynamic range as the F3. As an owner of both, do you agree?
 
Timur, someone earlier in the thread mentioned that the Epic has either the same or more dynamic range as the F3. As an owner of both, do you agree?

In the large sensor camera shoot out the Red one had a little better DR than the F3 without S-Log, and in later tests after S-Log came out a little less than the F3 with S-Log. Has anyone seen any objective, not subjective, tests with the Epic. Subjective tests are influenced by your subconscious bias.
 
the F3 has a bit more useable dynamic range.

The red has 13, but the bottom stop is pure noise. The dragon chip is supposed to be far cleaner meaning those stops are .
 
Back
Top