Why is ZOOM so popular when it is such poor quality?
- Thread starter Hutchman
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gonzo_entertainment
Veteran
Yep, my partner is the sound side of things. He composes all the music, does all the post audio (foley, ADR, etc...) and does the field recording. He actually has an apprentice right now that we are hoping can take over boom op duties in the near future .
lasikdenver
Well-known member
What do you guys think about this new Tascom dr-100mkII recorder? It looks to be pretty nice to me. http://tascam.com/product/dr-100mkii/
Great thread...
I have been really excited about the Cloud Lifter preamps such as the CL1 and CL2. I was wondering if anyone has used a cloudlifter preamp and (___ fill in the blank ___) microphone on the H4N with their latest firmware update. The earlier comments that the H4n is an entirely different animal with a decent preamp or active mixer has me wondering if it might be aok given a little preamp help to relieve the burden on its built in mike/line input preamps
I have been really excited about the Cloud Lifter preamps such as the CL1 and CL2. I was wondering if anyone has used a cloudlifter preamp and (___ fill in the blank ___) microphone on the H4N with their latest firmware update. The earlier comments that the H4n is an entirely different animal with a decent preamp or active mixer has me wondering if it might be aok given a little preamp help to relieve the burden on its built in mike/line input preamps
"90% of narrative film is 1 track"
"One good boom is nirvana"
True. But if the narrative includes shooting wide or if it's an unscripted doco..3 additional wireless iso tracks can cover a lot of variables.
Regarding the Cloud preamps (link), they are designed for dynamic and ribbon mics meaning they apparently use the phantom power to power the preamp but don't pass it on to power condenser mics. So..if you want to use a typical condenser hypercardioid or shotgun, you would need an additional box for phantom or use a mic that has internal battery option. But users seem to like the sound...at least with dynamics and ribbons.
"One good boom is nirvana"
True. But if the narrative includes shooting wide or if it's an unscripted doco..3 additional wireless iso tracks can cover a lot of variables.
Regarding the Cloud preamps (link), they are designed for dynamic and ribbon mics meaning they apparently use the phantom power to power the preamp but don't pass it on to power condenser mics. So..if you want to use a typical condenser hypercardioid or shotgun, you would need an additional box for phantom or use a mic that has internal battery option. But users seem to like the sound...at least with dynamics and ribbons.
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Noiz2
Sound Ninja
I did say narrative so not talking about docs. And it is true that a bunch of good tracks are generally better than one good track, "good" is the point. Many low budget multi mic shows fail on the good for a couple of reasons. First they often feel that coverage makes up for good coverage. Having a lot of mics none of which are in the right place is a waste of time. And second many don't really have a sound person. They are rigging four feeds into a h4n and not monitoring any of them. For many decades films were made with out the possibility of wireless mics. You can plan your shots so they can be miced, all the greats did. Personally I think it probably helps the picture for the director to have to think about sound a tiny bit.
That said well done multi track production can be a big plus in post IF it was done with forethought and not as a bandaid for poor blocking.
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
They are made for dynamic & ribbon mics so not much use for production work.
ben_r_
Well-known member
I think youre on the right track with this comment. IMO you really have to have something like a Sound Devices 702 or better and high end mics to start touching anything in the "pro" classification. And even that recorder youll never see in larger productions. Something more like an SD 744T or 788T with CL-8 or a whole sound cart setup.
The Zoom products are so popular for two reasons IMO, 1) Price, 2) They paid a few famous low budget short film makers to talk about and give reviews on their products. Simple as that and same as it is in any other game.
ben_r_
Well-known member
As manglerBMX mentioned, good ole Phillip Bloom for one. LINK
Much like his special edition Kessler Pocket Dolly (which dont get me wrong is a VERY nice slider) Im very sure money was exchanged on both counts.
Im sure there are others that I dont care to google right now, you can if you like, but really, since there arent that many big well known DSLR film makers out there, even just getting one would be enough to promote your product. I mean come on, one look at PB's site and you can tell where his getting income from.
Much like his special edition Kessler Pocket Dolly (which dont get me wrong is a VERY nice slider) Im very sure money was exchanged on both counts.
Im sure there are others that I dont care to google right now, you can if you like, but really, since there arent that many big well known DSLR film makers out there, even just getting one would be enough to promote your product. I mean come on, one look at PB's site and you can tell where his getting income from.
ben_r_
Well-known member
Agreed, but I dont believe he didnt get paid for it. If I owned Zoom, or Kessler, or any other company that I believed could and would benefit from the review/promotion/endorsement of a "celebrity" Id be paying him or compensating him with free use of my gear, etc then have someone out there taking pictures of him using it and ensure that my logo was at the end of the feature with a "special thanks" or whatever. Its all good advertisement and makes money.
Belief can be a slippery thing. Maybe Mr. Bloom is following this and will clarify whether he was paid to raise the profile of the H4N. It doesn't seem necessary to go there when market timing, price and functionality can answer the question that started the thread. Tthe area of production that requires $4,000 recorders is a different territory.
Terry_Lasater
All about the Caption
From a few pages back in this very thread...
Always good to blame someone else than take responsibility for one's own decision!
I used a Zoom H4N solidly until I got annoyed with it and bought the Tascam. I now use the Roland R26.
manglerBMX
Veteran
yeah i saw philip's post regarding mine, but didn't feel like digging up that link to his blog. but thats exactly why i posted what i did.
from philip he writes, "The Zoom H4n is a remarkable little device. It records everything from .mp3 48khz to 24bit 96khz. It has built in stereo condenser microphones and two XLR inputs which means you can record 4 channels of audio at the same time. It records onto SD cards and runs on 2AA batteries for about ten hours. It costs about $349."
and yes, i tried the zoom h4n, but as a professional sound mixer i don't like non bag friendly recorders like that. yes, i have a tascam dr40, but i only use it for personal projects, mainly mountain biking and my cats. a lot of my clients come from the "lets just use a zoom recorder for this dslr interview…" which drives me crazy. its that mindset that people like philip put into the industry, that using consumer grade equipment is fine for client paid work. so you get all these photographers and noobie video people into the industry hanging off of every product that philip mentions in his blog updates, and they see philip's way of doing things on his personal projects as how they should be doing their professional projects. one thing i hardly ever see philip mention is hiring the right crew to do the right things on set. i've never read a post of his mentioning hiring gaffers, grips, or SOUND. Its always one man band stuff, because usually he's just messing around on pretty much personal projects. and i've actually had someone contact me regarding doing sound on one of their projects and after giving them a quote they actually said to me, "well philip bloom doesn't use a sound guy, so i'll just use a zoom, thanks tho." so thats where i stand on that…
but i do like philip, he's a good dude and does great work. i love reading his blog and reviews. he's turned into a camera celebrity of sorts and i'm happy for him. but i just wish he'd instill a bit more insight into what it takes to do professional work on his blog.
from philip he writes, "The Zoom H4n is a remarkable little device. It records everything from .mp3 48khz to 24bit 96khz. It has built in stereo condenser microphones and two XLR inputs which means you can record 4 channels of audio at the same time. It records onto SD cards and runs on 2AA batteries for about ten hours. It costs about $349."
and yes, i tried the zoom h4n, but as a professional sound mixer i don't like non bag friendly recorders like that. yes, i have a tascam dr40, but i only use it for personal projects, mainly mountain biking and my cats. a lot of my clients come from the "lets just use a zoom recorder for this dslr interview…" which drives me crazy. its that mindset that people like philip put into the industry, that using consumer grade equipment is fine for client paid work. so you get all these photographers and noobie video people into the industry hanging off of every product that philip mentions in his blog updates, and they see philip's way of doing things on his personal projects as how they should be doing their professional projects. one thing i hardly ever see philip mention is hiring the right crew to do the right things on set. i've never read a post of his mentioning hiring gaffers, grips, or SOUND. Its always one man band stuff, because usually he's just messing around on pretty much personal projects. and i've actually had someone contact me regarding doing sound on one of their projects and after giving them a quote they actually said to me, "well philip bloom doesn't use a sound guy, so i'll just use a zoom, thanks tho." so thats where i stand on that…
but i do like philip, he's a good dude and does great work. i love reading his blog and reviews. he's turned into a camera celebrity of sorts and i'm happy for him. but i just wish he'd instill a bit more insight into what it takes to do professional work on his blog.
ben_r_
Well-known member
Yea I caught that too. He might not like the Zoom (as he obviously stated above) and I def cant say I blame him as its a toy IMO and he is deep enough in this industry that nothing less than Sound Devices or Zaxcom or the like should be used, but he still left a good review for all to read on his advertisement heavy website. That makes me think hes making money off it.
And as I mentioned before, DONT get me wrong, I do like his work very much and respect what he has done for the DSLR. I also def dont blame him as I would be accepting payment or whatever compensation for reviews if I were in his place too! Everyone does in every industry, its an age old game. I was just calling him on it for no purposes other than to offer my suggestion as to a possible answer to this thread.
And as I mentioned before, DONT get me wrong, I do like his work very much and respect what he has done for the DSLR. I also def dont blame him as I would be accepting payment or whatever compensation for reviews if I were in his place too! Everyone does in every industry, its an age old game. I was just calling him on it for no purposes other than to offer my suggestion as to a possible answer to this thread.
Doc Bernard
Indie Arms Member
I respect what you are saying, Ben. But I use the H4n and as inexpensive as it is, I don't consider it a toy. My work with it has been used on National TV and for Canon (their C300 release party), and both clients were happy with the results, as are all of my clients.
Although, I love the SD 702 and have used one whenever I have the time to go rent one and the production has the budget for it. It is all in how you use the tools you have and knowing it's limitations. As to the "non-bag" issue, I have solved that easily:
I attached the H4n to the strap of my mixer bag with a mini-monitor mount.
Look, this type of complaint really comes down to a couple of reasons: One, gear snobbery. We saw it when DSLR's were starting to hit the scene "Ah, that's a toy.......It won't be anything like film-making" Two, inexperience.
I don't get paid by Zoom, I had to pay full price for my H4n, and I use mine quite a lot on paid work. I recommend it if you know how to get good sound. You can't just slap a mic into it and expect miracles.
I always get a chuckle and shake my head when I hear someone say, "Oh, they wrote a good article about the product, they must be paid by the company". Sounds like sour grapes to me.
Although, I love the SD 702 and have used one whenever I have the time to go rent one and the production has the budget for it. It is all in how you use the tools you have and knowing it's limitations. As to the "non-bag" issue, I have solved that easily:
I attached the H4n to the strap of my mixer bag with a mini-monitor mount.
Look, this type of complaint really comes down to a couple of reasons: One, gear snobbery. We saw it when DSLR's were starting to hit the scene "Ah, that's a toy.......It won't be anything like film-making" Two, inexperience.
I don't get paid by Zoom, I had to pay full price for my H4n, and I use mine quite a lot on paid work. I recommend it if you know how to get good sound. You can't just slap a mic into it and expect miracles.
I always get a chuckle and shake my head when I hear someone say, "Oh, they wrote a good article about the product, they must be paid by the company". Sounds like sour grapes to me.
"lets just use a zoom recorder for this dslr interview…" which drives me crazy
Not sure why.
Plenty of pro video cams have worse audio than H4N. Plenty of quality interviews have been done with those pro cams.
The audio implementation in unmodified DSLR models is so lacking, something really needed to happen to allow basic, serviceable audio recording without the cost of a Sound Devices or Zaxcom unit that costs more than the camera. Part of what has enabled the DSLR arena is price point. I doubt Phillip Bloom invented the DSLR/Zoom/plural eyes workflow..just boiled it down into a concise blog entry.
Not sure why.
Plenty of pro video cams have worse audio than H4N. Plenty of quality interviews have been done with those pro cams.
The audio implementation in unmodified DSLR models is so lacking, something really needed to happen to allow basic, serviceable audio recording without the cost of a Sound Devices or Zaxcom unit that costs more than the camera. Part of what has enabled the DSLR arena is price point. I doubt Phillip Bloom invented the DSLR/Zoom/plural eyes workflow..just boiled it down into a concise blog entry.