Why is my Cineform performance so awful in Vegas?

B

Barry_Green

Moderator
Okay, so -- using Cineform to strip out the pulldown from GH1 footage, I end up with 1080/24p Cineform .AVIs.

I keep reading about how Cineform is so fast, but -- I get, on average, 2.2 frames per second playback.

Yet if I use Windows Media Player, from the desktop, to play the files, they play back at full speed realtime.

Same thing with Premiere Pro CS4.2 -- Cineform AVIs just choke and stutter. They're really no faster than playing the raw AVCHD file.

I know it's not supposed to be like that, so -- what gives?

Any ideas?

Vegas 8.0c, 1080/24p timeline, Core 2 Duo 2.4GHz, nVidia Quadro NVS 140M graphics card, Best/Full in the preview window.

It does get faster if I cripple it to preview/half (about 8fps) or draft/quarter (20fps) but -- what's the point of that? Windows Media Player plays the files full-size, full-screen 1920x1080, full frame rate, so ... ???
 
I'm not sure about Vegas, but for Preimere CineForm should have installed a bunch of plugins (at least it did for my CS3 Preimiere) that I think make it work fast in Premiere, Encore and After Effects. If you look at the install.log in the directory you installed CineForm in you should see the installer look for and find all these Adobe dirs, then install stuff into them. I don't see any Vegas bits, but it definitely installs things for Preimere CS3.

My performance in Vegas 8 isn't all that great but my machine is getting very old(dual operton 250's). Frame rates vary based on the size of the preview window but mostly I'm stuck at Draft(auto) and Preview(auto) to get full frame rate.
 
For Premiere it's because Cineform has yet to release the real-time engine, so right now real-time performance is not guaranteed (they probably should have made that clear in their advertisement instead of buried in an update page).


http://techblog.cineform.com/?p=2534

Apparently Adobe went and redesigned CS4 from the ground up so Cineform is having trouble adapting to that; it's been like that for nearly six months. They're promising an update with real-time performance soon but the deadline keeps slipping.
 
>Best/Full in the preview window.

This is one of the problems. You are not supposed to edit in Best/Full, you are supposed to edit in Preview/Full. Best/Full is only for a quick look only to see if a plugin, or colors, or whatever is done properly. But 99% of the time, you are supposed to edit at Preview/Full.

A few more tips about how to speed up previewing here: http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2008/12/19/sony-vegas-hints-and-tips/
I have full speed Cineform 1080/24p on my Vegas with the above tips, on a similar PC like yours.

Also, make sure you have installed the latest version of Cineform installed, and COPY AWAY the Vegas Cineform decoder. You see, Vegas 8 comes with an OLD Cineform decoder that takes precedence over the newer one. On the link above, I show how to copy away the old decoder and use the new one. This should help things a lot.
 
I didn't really see any speed difference disabling the built in Cineform (but it didn't seem to hurt). I also followed your other advice with regards to settings in Vegas. As long as I stay in draft/preview I can easily get 24fps (er well 23.976). But that was true before and after the changes.

I also finally broke down and figured out why I couldn't preview clips in the explorer like I used to(would just get sound, but not the video). Turns out it's a setting on the Trimmer window(which of course was hidden). Changing this has made me like Vegas 8 so much more it isn't funny.
 
Eugenia Loli-Queru said:
This is one of the problems. You are not supposed to edit in Best/Full, you are supposed to edit in Preview/Full. Best/Full is only for a quick look only to see if a plugin, or colors, or whatever is done properly. But 99% of the time, you are supposed to edit at Preview/Full.
Click to expand...

Huh? It's a valid workflow choice, especially on slower computers, but "supposed to" implies that it was intended by the designers.
 
If you get 20 fps in draft/quarter, then something is indeed wrong. I was getting about 22 fps for 24p footage with preview/half. Still not fast if you ask me, and almost the same speed as with native AVCHD.
 
msorrels said:
I'm not sure about Vegas, but for Preimere CineForm should have installed a bunch of plugins (at least it did for my CS3 Preimiere) that I think make it work fast in Premiere, Encore and After Effects.
Click to expand...
It did install all that stuff (thanks for the pointer to the install.log). It's all installed, but playback is pig-slow.

I don't see any Vegas bits, but it definitely installs things for Preimere CS3.
Click to expand...
Yep, nothing installed for Vegas.
 
Huy Vu said:
For Premiere it's because Cineform has yet to release the real-time engine, so right now real-time performance is not guaranteed (they probably should have made that clear in their advertisement instead of buried in an update page).


http://techblog.cineform.com/?p=2534

Apparently Adobe went and redesigned CS4 from the ground up so Cineform is having trouble adapting to that; it's been like that for nearly six months. They're promising an update with real-time performance soon but the deadline keeps slipping.
Click to expand...
But it plays from the desktop in realtime...

So -- forgive me, but what is the POINT of going to Cineform, if it edits just as slowly as the native h.264 files? I can play native AVCHD at best/full just as fast as Cineform files... Cineform advertises how it's so fast, and that it's an "editing codec" -- are other folks not experiencing this supposed fastness?
 
Eugenia Loli-Queru said:
>Best/Full in the preview window.

This is one of the problems. You are not supposed to edit in Best/Full, you are supposed to edit in Preview/Full. Best/Full is only for a quick look only to see if a plugin, or colors, or whatever is done properly. But 99% of the time, you are supposed to edit at Preview/Full.
Click to expand...
I have always used best/full. I can edit DVCPRO-HD in best/full, HDV in best/full, anything else in best/full, no problems at all.


I have full speed Cineform 1080/24p on my Vegas with the above tips, on a similar PC like yours.
Click to expand...
I followed all your recommendations, and the closest I can get to full speed is preview/half. That's just not acceptable. It's kinda pathetic... there's got to be something wrong. CanopusHQ I can get full-screen, full-speed playback. Cineform from the desktop I can get full-screen, full-speed playback. So why in Vegas do I have to drop from Best/Full down through Good all the way to Preview, and even then, only at "half"?

Also, make sure you have installed the latest version of Cineform installed, and COPY AWAY the Vegas Cineform decoder. You see, Vegas 8 comes with an OLD Cineform decoder that takes precedence over the newer one. On the link above, I show how to copy away the old decoder and use the new one. This should help things a lot.
Click to expand...
Did that; I found that on an old DVInfo thread before posting this one. So yes, I already got rid of the old CFHD.dll. No change.
 
I got realtime playback last night on RED R3D footy in Best/Quarter in the vegas 9.0c trial... just trying out my new system. :) That was just drag and drop. no cineform or anything like that of course.

</threadjack>

later,
Jason
 
The only other thing I can think of is that you are using maybe an older Cineform version? There was a version around July that had performance probs, so not if that's to blame.
 
Barry_Green said:
But it plays from the desktop in realtime...

So -- forgive me, but what is the POINT of going to Cineform, if it edits just as slowly as the native h.264 files? I can play native AVCHD at best/full just as fast as Cineform files... Cineform advertises how it's so fast, and that it's an "editing codec" -- are other folks not experiencing this supposed fastness?
Click to expand...

EXACTLY! AVCHD files plays on desktop in realtime for me too but choppy editing performance which is why I'm not even using it anymore except for the occasional pulldown removal. I've been a Cineform user since Premiere Pro 2.0 and I haven't been completely happy with Cineform even back when they said it gives real time performance on HDV editing (which is why I got it). After going through 2 different computers, both with respectable specs, my HDV editing performance is about the same as if I was editing the native mpg. Back then I really felt ripped off for shelling out 500 bones and it's almost like I'm the lone person who's not experiencing the "fastness" that the codec is supposed to produced.

(In all fairness I will point out that Cineform has great After Effects integration; editing there is much faster and it's a good storage codec if I don't want to go uncompressed. Pulldown removal for HV20 is nice too).

I actually got a free upgrade from Aspect to Prospect so I don't have much to complain about it, but I can only imagine how someone forking out $750 would feel when they bought the software only to be informed (after some digging) that the REAL-TIME performance actually comes later. Cineform really needs to make this lack of a real-time engine very obvious in their promotion. It would also be nice if Cineform stop focusing on niceties like adding metadata and 3D capabilities and actually concentrate on making the codec more editable.
 
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Barry,

Did you found an answer to your performance problem? I have the same kind of problem here. Vegas 8c on Vista 64, Core 2 Quad, 4gb RAM, Neoscene and only about 5fps in best/full.
 
No, I filed a support ticket with Cineform and they promptly got back to me, but I dropped the ball on my side and then forgot to follow up. So it's not their fault, I just didn't follow through. I really should do that...

... but I suggest you file a support ticket with them. They did respond quickly.
 
Could it be that Windows Media Player is taking advantage of GPU acceleration to play back the Cineform files, while Vegas (which, as far as I know, strictly uses the CPU) is not?
 
Because of issues such as these and file size I'm trying to avoid having to encode a bunch of my HDV to CF.

There are a few threads that talk about using Sony MXF as an alternative.

Has anyone done this?

What settings did you choose?
 
vegas performance with neoscene

vegas performance with neoscene

Barry_Green said:
I have always used best/full. I can edit DVCPRO-HD in best/full, HDV in best/full, anything else in best/full, no problems at all.



I followed all your recommendations, and the closest I can get to full speed is preview/half. That's just not acceptable. It's kinda pathetic... there's got to be something wrong. CanopusHQ I can get full-screen, full-speed playback. Cineform from the desktop I can get full-screen, full-speed playback. So why in Vegas do I have to drop from Best/Full down through Good all the way to Preview, and even then, only at "half"?


Did that; I found that on an old DVInfo thread before posting this one. So yes, I already got rid of the old CFHD.dll. No change.
Click to expand...

I'm having the same problem with vegas and neoscene. Performed all the mentioned suggestions, However i'm running the trial version of neoscene, I wont be purchasing it if a solution is not found. I get poor performance even in draft mode at 1/4 rez! What are my options? thanks..
 
JWinter said:
Because of issues such as these and file size I'm trying to avoid having to encode a bunch of my HDV to CF.

There are a few threads that talk about using Sony MXF as an alternative.

Has anyone done this?

What settings did you choose?
Click to expand...

It's REALLY hard to answer questions like this. Sony MXF works well but it's lossy, it's 8 bit, and may not be suitable based on your needs. So without knowing a bunch more about what you have, and what you're doing, we can't really offer an intelligent answer.
 
veidog said:
I'm having the same problem with vegas and neoscene. Performed all the mentioned suggestions, However i'm running the trial version of neoscene, I wont be purchasing it if a solution is not found. I get poor performance even in draft mode at 1/4 rez! What are my options? thanks..
Click to expand...

Are you in 8-bit or 32 bit mode? What kind of machine do you have (CPU, RAM, Drives)? Could be a dozen things.
 
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