Why dont filmmakers use video cameras?

I think the problem is the inclusion of an S35-sized chip. What about a 2/3" chip at 4k with 12 stops of DR and writing RAW to SSDs? Would a fixed lens mount still be an issue then?

As someone said already, some could view this as not desirable as you cannot use different lenses.

But you are correct about lens design. I agree with you that the biggest obstacle standing in the way of a manufacturer making a fixed zoom lens on a s35mm sized sensor, is the sensor size. A big sensor makes designing an 'all purpose' lens (one with a fast speed, good quality, and large focal range) incredibly difficult, especially when cost and size is to remain low. A 2/3" chip would optically require a lens that could be smaller and lighter in design and thus be much more practical for the advantages of a built in lens.


"If your sensor can compensate for the speed by giving you extremely clean image at extremely high ISO, why do you care if your zoom is slow?"

Because the aperture of the lens affects more than the exposure, it changes other qualities of the image.

Yes. Having a slow zoom would mean your DoF could not get any more shallow than the maximum aperture of the lens you have, without changing your compositions. Also an image tends to get more contrasty when you stop down, flare qualities can differ, etc. There are optical effects, and further so than simply bokeh. For me, it would be the lesser of evils, as I tend to want to be at a T/4 to begin with. But I can see where people would be afraid to loose the option. I mean, heck, many people today freak out about using T/2.8 lenses because they want that super shallow DoF. So despite seeing myself content, I will bet there will be some protests at an idea of a T/5.6 zoom wide open, even if cameras are at 4000 iso by then.

How often does that need arise? The two circumstances that immediately come to mind are a) super wide angle lenses, which you can always mount an adapter on the front of a fix lens to give it more room on the sides, and b) tilt-shift, which can also be mimicked to some extent in post and isn't one you see very often in narrative work at all.

What besides those two?

In my world the need to change lenses arises every day. It may not be the need to change lenses on set, but the ability to choose your weapon for the project. I will get into the aesthetic reasons in a minute, but first look at practicality.

First, if you plan on renting the camera out, cinematographers and videographers all have personal preference on lenses while more importantly, they also have differing budgets. If the lens is fixed the lens will always be of a certain quality and range. It will not change. Thus if it is made like an Angie Optimo, it will attract the cinema crowd, but likely scare away the indie crowd, low-budget or videography crowd because of size and price. Compromise the zoom lens a little and you will gain the low budget crowd, but the cinema boys will pass on the camera.

So the camera package, as a rental, could be viewed as more attractive as you can rent it to everybody (if it's a good camera) and custom fit a lens that best suits each production.

You are also correct with your two scenarios. An all purpose zoom, is never an all purpose zoom. It is a great lens to have to cover the typical range, but there will always be shots that need that special focal length or two outside of the range. Whether it be a 10mm lens like used in Fear and Loathing or an 800mm lens, like the one Conrad Hall, ASC used to shoot the race sequences in Without Limits. There will be times where you will want a lens outside of the range you have, and instead of renting a whole new camera, you can just change the lens.

Tilt shift is another good example. It cannot be accurately recreated in post, but perhaps can be 'ballpark' close. I would assume on a normal production where post production costs money, it would be less expensive to simply shoot the shot with a tilt shift lens rather than tagging it as a plate and having a VFX company hammer it out down the line.

Regarding other reasons:
1) To use a different brand of lenses: Modern Cooke, Zeiss, Leica, Red brand, and other lenses give different looks. Not just color, but texture, contrast, bokeh, etc.
2) Use vintage lenses. Sometimes you want modern lens coatings for crisp, clear, and sharp images. Sometimes you want to play in the mud. Vintage lenses have been used on huge productions to great advantage, and if you have ever played with an old, broken, and dirty lens, you will see the absolute beauty of it.
3) Anamorphic. So you want anamorphic flares? Oval Bokeh? You want the resolution benefit of them? I doubt the fixed zoom in the camera will be anamorphic.
4) Special effects shots that require tilt-shift, probe, snorkel, or any other specialty lens that distorts perspective. Similar to the shot from Close Encounters by Vilmos Zsigmond
5) You cannot use a macro lens, unless the built in zoom provides. You cannot use a bellows system to get super macro nor a lens baby, as in Assassination of Jesse James or The Diving Bell and the Butterfly, by Roger Deakins and Janusz Kaminski, respectively.
6) The ability to free lens. Every shoot a beautiful 'free-lensing shot'? It's absolutely wonderful for playful love scenes, memories or dreams. Flare-tastic!
7) The ability to fix a lens without needing to send the camera in. My HVX200 backfocus went out from me leaving it in macro for two years (thanks RedRock adapter). Had to send the whole camera to get fixed. My cooke 25mm lens had a slight shim issue after two years of use and I just had to send the lens out, not my camera.
8) The ability to switch to a smaller lens for space or weight reasons. I will assume an 'all purpose' zoom range lens for a s35mm camera will not be small. If on a steadi-cam, going handheld, in small spaces, suction cup mount, or similar situation, we typically ditch our zoom for a lighter prime.

Those are the advantages I came up with after 2min of thought. I'm sure there are more.

Now there are advantages to fixed lenses, but as I've said in a previous post, the OP was discussing fixed lenses for cinema purposes. If anything, that is the one area of cinematography/videography that needs it the most. We don't shoot talking heads, weddings or corporate videos all day. We shoot car chases, alien invasions, acid trips, love scenes, murders, mysteries, and comedy. Our needs change as the story does.

-ryan
 
Last edited:
Tilt shift is another good example. I cannot be accurately depicted in post, but perhaps ballpark close. I would assume on a normal production where post production costs money, it would be less expensive to shoot the plate with a tilt shift lens than to tag it as a VFX shot and pay a team of people to work on it after the fact. My assumption.

I have no idea of the VFX cost, but I'm pretty sure the tilt-shift scene in The Social Network was an after-the-fact deal, considering that the sequence was shot on different days and the effect was done because the shots didn't quite match up properly.

I'm certainly not, nor would I assume Barry was pushing either, for the idea of going all fixed lens. Only that a fixed lens camera of desirable specs could be adequate for a lot of narrative film work. I mean, hell, how many HVX-200 movies are there?
 
I have no idea of the VFX cost, but I'm pretty sure the tilt-shift scene in The Social Network was an after-the-fact deal, considering that the sequence was shot on different days and the effect was done because the shots didn't quite match up properly.

I'm certainly not, nor would I assume Barry was pushing either, for the idea of going all fixed lens. Only that a fixed lens camera of desirable specs could be adequate for a lot of narrative film work. I mean, hell, how many HVX-200 movies are there?

My first two movies are HVX.... with a red Rock adapter for Nikon lenses.
 
Is your film really made or broken depending on being able to use these lenses in all circumstances? Isn't where most films fail in the image department usually due to poor lighting rather than having a fast lens or super-shallow DOF, or not using CP.2 lenses?

Absolutely. I also think you could absolutely shoot a beautiful film with the camera you describe. I think my point is a lot of people would still prefer an interchangeable lens system.
 
I'm certainly not, nor would I assume Barry was pushing either, for the idea of going all fixed lens. Only that a fixed lens camera of desirable specs could be adequate for a lot of narrative film work.
Exactly the question I was exploring. And yes, I know an S35 lens of that range is impractical if not impossible. Still, an AF100 with a 14-35 and 35-100 gets most of the range covered in just two lenses, so the idea of having and needing all sorts of exotic lenses seems, to me, like Gary says -- a fringe thing, not mainstream. It's like the Canon XL1 -- just how many people who bought that thing EVER changed the lens? Ever? Maybe 3%? Wild guess. Or the JVC HD100. Or the HPX370. How many people are bothering to change the lens on those cameras? Not many. Why? Because the stock lens has a pretty good range on it, and more lenses cost dough.

like having a voigtlander 25mm f0.95 lens, or the CP.2 lenses, or using lenses not originally made for your type of camera, like putting C-mount lenses on a GH2, or a B4 mount ENG lens. SLR Magic Noktor has a new F0.95 as well, 50mm.

Well, see, that's exactly the point. I have the Voigtlander 25mm f/0.95. And I have an entire set of CP.2's. And I have c-mount lenses that I can use on the GH2 and the AF100. And I have a B4 mount for my m43 cameras. And I'm considering getting the HyperPrime 12mm and the Voigtlander 17.5mm.

Add it up. That's $1200 for the 25mm, $30,000 for the CP.2's, probably another $1500 for my c-mounts, and I haven't bothered to even get a B4 lens, and if I get the HyperPrime and the 17.5, there's another $2,000. So that's almost $35,000 in lenses, spent on a $3500 camera.

Now, what I'm saying is -- doesn't that seem a tad silly?

What if there could be a fixed lens that covered 95% of people's needs, at a low cost. Like the DVX had -- that one zoom lens on the DVX was all we had, all we needed, etc... Sure there are special-case shots, but if there could be such a thing as a reasonable all-purpose lens, I bet the vast majority of us would find that covered almost all we ever needed, and could do so at a ridiculously lower cost. I'm thinking the 12-35 and 35-100, combined, will be about $2500, or less than about 1/7 of what I've spent on interchangeable lenses. And those two will avoid all the hassles of interchanging lenses, like trying to color-match a Tokina to a Canon to a Nikon to a Voigtlander and the variations in bokeh and everything else that comes along with it.

I'm not saying this mythical fixed-lens camera would be "better", but I am saying it'd be vastly more appropriate and vastly less expensive and probably "better suited" to most of the work that folks here do with these types of cameras, for a whole incredible lot less.

The ABILITY to interchange lenses is delightful. The REALITY of interchanging lenses is that it's a hassle, which is why zooms came about in the first place.

I mean, hell, how many HVX-200 movies are there?
Well, yeah, good point -- and DVX100 movies on top of it and you're talking about a whole lot. And yes, many of them used adapters, which eliminates all the convenience of the zooms. Which is why, ideally, there'd be both products on the market -- interchangeable for those who need it, and a low-cost fixed lens for those who would benefit from the convenience.

I guess all I'm really getting at is -- there were many, many, many good reasons why zooms exterminated primes in conventional video cameras, and all those same reasons still hold -- just like there are many reasons why interchangeable lens mounts have proven so popular. We always want and crave what we don't have, and the grass is sometimes greener on the other side, and sometimes it isn't. That's all.
 
No doubt.

And I think a lot of those people, after working with an interchangeable lens system, will start pining for the days of the simplicity of the fixed zoom...

My DP comes from 35mm Panaflex world, and I come from film based still photography, so neither of us really spent much time in that happy world of deep focus and servo zooms. I don't doubt there are times it's pretty nice.
 
It's a speed issue. If you could save money and time shooting a feature by using a fixed lens camera and get 90% of what you'd have otherwise, is it not worth it?
 
It's a speed issue. If you could save money and time shooting a feature by using a fixed lens camera and get 90% of what you'd have otherwise, is it not worth it?

I could shoot faster by not as much coverage or doing less complicated lighting setups, etc... too, is that worth it? Well, it depends on what I'm shooting and who is paying for it, etc...
 
Not having coverage + less complicated lighting will have a more direct impact on your final moving image than if you used a fixed zoom lens camera. Thus, my point.
 
I shot a war scene on my fixed lens xha1 that I would have never had time to shoot with my dslr. And yes, I have some wide and long lenses, it's just when running around the forest with actors that are giving it their all, and only enough time to do two takes, and some coverage/cut aways. I needed something that wouldn't slow down or kill the momentum with lens changes, I was able to simply do it on the fly with a fixed lens camera. I shot the take, then punched in for closeups, wham bam thankyou mam! done. Although for my coverage, it would have been great to get a more shallow dof without moving back through pricker bushes, but hey, maybe someday we can have a fixed lens large sensor camcorder, or even a camcorder with interchangeable sensors. Now that would be slick, change it out depending on the shoot. lol.
"For this shot, throw on the full frame sensor, then swith it back to super16 size for our establishing shot" and make sure to clean off your friggen finger prints before you attatch the lens" :)

I certainly see both sides of the debate though. It always seems to boil down to using the right tool for the job:)
 
I think it depends on the market you're aiming such a camera towards. As has been said, yes those low-no budget who would otherwise be shooting on an HVX would love it I'm sure. But then, have they used interchangeable lenses enough to distinctly be able to say why they prefer a fixed lens?
Personally, I'm in pre-pro for thee seperate shorts shooting on Alexa. In each film I want to use a different prime set. That's purely from a creative point of view, what lenses I think would look best for the story. Look at Hollywood films - some use zooms, some use primes. Some use both. Sometimes zooms allow for mobility and speed, and sometimes you use primes for this or that. To take that option away would be detrimental to the camera's high end use. Yes, there would be a market for a 2/3" fixed lens camera with this and that, but not necessarily a narrative cinema market, or at least narrative cinema with a half decent budget.

To look at it from a different perspective: Imagine if a sound guy was forced to use one type of microphone when he bought his recorder (recorder with 'fixed' mic). Would the sound results be acceptable? Maybe. Low-no budget types would again rejoice I'm sure. But the reason sound guys use different mics in different situations is not just because he feels like it. It's the same with lenses - we don't use different lenses in different situations because we just feel like changing it up..
 
I would say interchangeable lenses would be considered invaluable by most professional cinematographers. Unless a completely all in one lens solution was invented (which most multi use zooms can't account for outliers like macro or extreme telephoto, much less achieve the same relative sharpness as a lot of primes).
 
Thought some might be interest in the size difference between a Cooke 20-100 cine zoom and a Tokina 16-50 still zoom.
 

Attachments

  • Cooke vs Tokina.jpg
    Cooke vs Tokina.jpg
    89.2 KB · Views: 0
Back
Top