Why did Panasonic get out of the filmmaker game?

eddavid

eddavid

Carbonite Member
I justed watched "Waiting for Superman" - I think shot on the HDX900 and I can't help but think - why did Panasonic end their filmmaker run with the AF100? Why did they let Canon come in with the C300 and C100 and kick butt?

Is the market that small that it doesn't really matter? Probably. I think Barry Green wrote about this.

I figured with their hit cameras like the hvx200 and the dvx100 they sold a told of units but I guess it's all a drip in the bucket to them - so there is not much reason to really for them get into it.

And it's sad because I love the color of the HDX900 and the Varicam and how it handled motion - it had a really nice look.

Oh well.
 
I don't think they have given up. At least I hope not. They're product cycle is slow from what I understand. I don't know how they did sales wise but I have an AF100 and I love it. I hope the continue to develop a big sensor like it with what we all want. I'm hoping for something with the feature set of the Sony F5. I'd also be pleased with a big sensor camera to 2K.
We'll see.
 
It would be interesting to find out the real answer to the question but I doubt we will never officially here why. Throwing out some speculation about things that could have factored into the decision. The biggest one being a business decision fearing it would be a race to the bottom where the benchmark price was $3000 set by Canon (inadvertantly) due to the success of the 5DmkII. Another reason could be the Tsunami affecting manufacturing ability and the ripple effect that strain would have had on decision making of almost any kind for a manfacturing company in Japan. Focusing on other markets where they saw their core business (broadcast). One could go on.

Panasonic just announced a 4K broadcast ENG camera. I think this is of merit in terms of camera production and they should do well with it.
 
If I'm not mistaken, the latest NAB 2013 was the AJ-PX5000G back in May 2013. What latest announcement is that? I'd be shocked to see a 4K ENG camera fr. them. It'd be a complete surprise.

http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wc...3031553585&surfModel=Content03202013031553585

Even if there exists 4K ENG, it will take many years for broadcasters to catch on. Infrastructure for live 4K is not there yet. 4K lenses for ENG similar to a 22x 2/3" is no where to be found. And if it's I don't think it will be less than $130,000.00 for a 19-400mm/T 2.8 PL broadcast lens that you can hold it on your hand comfortably. No wonder why Panasonic is still sticking to 2/3". I don't see 2/3" 1080p format dying anytime soon nor have any worries that 4K will take over for ENG and some EFP markets. 4K will have at least decade to catch on the mass public.


Andrew Stone said:
It would be interesting to find out the real answer to the question but I doubt we will never officially here why. Throwing out some speculation about things that could have factored into the decision. The biggest one being a business decision fearing it would be a race to the bottom where the benchmark price was $3000 set by Canon (inadvertantly) due to the success of the 5DmkII. Another reason could be the Tsunami affecting manufacturing ability and the ripple effect that strain would have had on decision making of almost any kind for a manfacturing company in Japan. Focusing on other markets where they saw their core business (broadcast). One could go on.

Panasonic just announced a 4K broadcast ENG camera. I think this is of merit in terms of camera production and they should do well with it.
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eddavid said:
why did Panasonic end their filmmaker run with the AF100? Why did they let Canon come in with the C300 and C100 and kick butt?
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Well, it is all a matter of perception, I guess. Panasonic may feel that they're offering the products that they want to offer, but clearly the other manufacturers are offering the products that the filmmakers actually want. The question is: is the market big enough to support all that? I mean, look at the large-sensor lineup, there's a ton of cameras out there; are there enough customers for them all?

As for the C100 and C300, those are totally different price brackets. C100 was, at the time of introduction, twice the price of the AF100 (street price, obviously), and the C300 was 4x as high. That's changed a little now, but they're totally different market segments. The bigger question is: why didn't Panasonic ever expand their lineup to compete in those segments of the market too?

I don't know. Heaven knows we asked 'em for it. I was lobbying for a P2/AVCI/10-bit version of the AF200 three years ago.

But ultimately they have to build what they can sell, and sell what they can build, and they might guess right or might guess wrong. With the AF100 they offer a product that's different from everything else on the market, and priced lower, but with all the attention on the C100, maybe Panasonic's aiming too low?

Obviously they haven't felt that affordable large sensor cameras are where their current emphasis should be. Their recent introductions have been all about larger 2/3" modular cameras, like the HPX600 and PX5000 and whatever else. To me, I don't really "get" that; it seems like that's the market that has collapsed the most. But I'm not them, and they're not me; their livelihood depends on them guessing right, so ... time will tell. If they shut their doors three years from now and exit the broadcast business, we'll know they guessed wrong. If instead they're thriving, we'll know they guessed right.

The Panasonic pro video world certainly doesn't seem to be centered around large-sensor cinema cameras. They're all about security cameras and broadcast cameras and switchers and projectors and remote pan/tilt cameras and sports and coaching analysis and churches. If you read their press releases, it seems like these are the markets that they write most about. Either that's because those are the markets they're having the most success with, or because that's the markets they're most actively pursuing. And that's a pretty big world, and one that may dwarf the filmmaker group.

Which, if they are focusing on other than us, would be disappointing. The HDX900 did have a lovely look, and even to this day the BBC is using tape-based Varicams for some of their most high-profile nature series...

I don't know if they've "gotten out of the filmmaker game"; they did just introduce the extremely-mildly-updated AF100A. Apparently they think that's enough and that they've got the market covered. I don't think many of us here would agree with that assessment, but ... again ... it's their livelihood on the line, so you have to assume that they're doing what they're doing intentionally and that it makes sense for them.
 
...Personally I think it all revolves around large-sensor manufacturing, which Panasonic is working on but we won't see anything competitive from them for at least 12 - 18 months from now.
 
Barry_Green said:
The HDX900 did have a lovely look, and even to this day the BBC is using tape-based Varicams for some of their most high-profile nature series....
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The HPX900 may still get very occasional use, but the BBC are not using it routinely for high profile nature - same is true of any 720 only camera. Last news was that they are highly interested in 4k for adding an element of future proofing to material seen as with long term value, and there was an article about them using Red in just such a case. The Natural History Unit have certainly used Panasonic cameras recently, but I'm pretty sure nowadays such would have to be full 1080 resolution and AVC-Intra for a main camera.

On this subject, for anybody in the UK it's worth having a look at the double page photo spread on pages 6-7 of the current "Radio Times" about the latest Natural History programme - "Meet the Monkeys". (It's the 31 Aug-6 Sept edition.) Apart from showing close-up one of the monkeys more interested in grooming the cameraman's hair (!) than in being filmed, much of the photograph is taken up with the camera. Obviously an Alexa, but interesting in that it appears to be using a normal 2/3" lens with an adaptor to convert to s35. I was aware such a thing existed, but interesting to see it being used on such a programme - I associate it more with high end drama. Does anybody who is able to see the photograph know more about the one in question?

[EDIT - If you haven't got the Radio Times, the photograph I refer to is available online at http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/galleries/p01fy89z ]
 
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I was just surprised to see that they were shooting parts of Frozen Planet on the tape-based Varicam. I would have thought they'd have moved on from 960x720 and tape long ago, but ... there it was. Now, obviously, lots of different types of cameras were used, but they were still using the tape too.
 
Interesting, using a 2/3" B4 lens on an Alexa. I guess it just goes to show, the convenience of a power zoom 2/3" lens is hard to beat.

And I'd hate to have dragged that rig through a tropical jungle!
 
Bear in mind that filming on Frozen Planet started in about 2008 (?) and equipment choices are likely to have been settled before that - 5-6 years is quite a long time in camera technology terms ( :) ) so what was acceptable then may not be now. I'd be very surprised if that department is willing to accept shooting on any 720 based camera now, except for specialist use.

Yes, even 5-6 years ago P2/solid state may have been displacing tape based Varicam in the Panasonic line-up, but there could have been very good reasons for keeping with tape, ranging from it being equipment already owned by a freelancer (so a much better rate than if an extra camera had to be hired specially! :) ), to more technical reasons such as limited facilities for downloading material from solid state cards in the (likely very remote) field.
 
vanvideo said:
Interesting, using a 2/3" B4 lens on an Alexa. I guess it just goes to show, the convenience of a power zoom 2/3" lens is hard to beat.
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Yes, and the advantage of using it with a large sensor camera like the Alexa is that you can either have the convenience of such a lens via the adaptor, or put on a fast prime or short range zoom when you need the shallow depth of field. I think that's why 2/3" chip cameras are still popular on such as news and general broadcast work, but why higher end drama and documentaries are increasingly going to s35.
And I'd hate to have dragged that rig through a tropical jungle!
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When I was googling for a link, I also found this - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01fyby2 . Especially worth watching at about 1 min 40 secs. :)
 
So, if a documentary of a Frozen Planet scale was shot today, the cameras of choice would probably be F55s, C300s and Alexas. I suppose P2 Varicams would also be used...or would they?
If you were going out today to shoot a high-end documentary for months at a time, what would be your camera choice?
 
I think it would depend on circumstances, and often camera etc choices have to be be made well in advance of filming for such projects - so the cameras actually being used may not be the most cutting edge at time of filming. It's also likely to involve "main" cameras and a host of others for specialist uses - including Gopros etc. The production the BBC are working on for next year has been talked about before - http://www.redsharknews.com/production/item/403-bbc-natural-history-unit-to-embrace-4k - and I think I remember hearing that for that the 4k elements are being done with Red cameras.

Of the cameras on your list, then if planning today I think I'd look first at F55s, as for one thing they are 4k capable. For such as underwater filming, then RAW certainly brings massive benefits, allows far and away the most post control, and for underwater footage that is extremely important. Certainly, large sensor (s35) cameras now seem to be name of the game for top end work and I'm amazed that we haven't seen a 4k large sensor varicam from Panasonic.
 
vanvideo said:
When did Panasonic do this? The last I heard was of a new 1080P Varicam and AX5000.

Are you referring to this new 2/3" 4K chip? But there's no mention of a new camera to put it in.

http://www.redsharknews.com/technology/item/852-panasonic-s-new-4k-sensor-camera-coming-soon
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No I misread an email announcement where a Panasonic 2/3's inch ENG camera was released and they were also talking about 4K gear in the same breath. Went back and checked. I was incorrect. I apologize to those I may have elevated hope.
 
Yes super 35mm sensors make a lot of sense for tv and commercial work. Able to work in lower light. The downside is the focus - but I don't really think people struggle too much with that especially at a f stop of 5.6 that you can easily get to with high ASA cameras. The Sony F55 and C300 are doing a lot of work that I used to see in the low-budget cable tv world - that the HDX900 and the Varicam used to be king of. I think the higher ASA and lower-grain make super 35mm sensors a real choice. Of course everything but sports were there needs to be critical focus at all times. Its sad - I love Panasonic - I love their team and their products. Who didn't love their DVX100 or HVX200? They were so revolutionary. I hope they surprise us all. I love the Alexa and all - but I guess the more variety the better it is - especially now that films roll in tv and commercials diminishes - I'd love to have more options. And Canon is great and I'm so happy for their success but I miss my Panasonic!
 
I have a feeling Panasonic is working on some things right now.
Maybe they'll show up late, but come in swinging hard.

I hope so. Hard to think they go from the DVX100 success to kind of falling behind and fading.
 
I did hear about financial woes last year. Maybe they had to pull the reigns back a bit? Many thought an AF-200 followup would have been a hit. The Panny mojo seems to be preferred by many. Definately a missed market opportunity. I think Panasonic could really compete in the C100 territory if they wanted to.
 
Bassman2003 said:
I think Panasonic could really compete in the C100 territory if they wanted to.
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Only if they have a competitive image sensor, which is something they are working on...

Filterless Camera Sensor Tech from Panasonic Might Be a Low-Light Breakthrough

Panasonic Develops Technology for Highly Sensitive Image Sensors Using Micro Color Splitters

Fujifilm and Panasonic Jointly Develop an Organic Cmos Image Sensor Technology Using Organic Photoelectric Conversion Layer

The new organic CMOS image sensor offers the industry's highest dynamic range of 88dB, advanced sensitivity 1.2 times more sensitive than conventional sensors
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88 dB = 14.6 Stops of Dynamic Range
 
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