Other: Why did it take so long?

J

JMProductions

Member
You can see this question as a negative if you choose to but as everyone is getting excited for this awesome camera I think its a valuable question that we might learn something from. Don't let my post count fool you I have been involved with DVX USER when we were strapping on lenses to the DVX with the first Letus. I migrated to Red cause I thought that was where the future was and waitied patiently for the Fixed Scarlet to come.



My question is why did it take so long. I mean was it because the technology to build this camera became afforable in the last couple of years? Seeing Digital Bolex make an amateur stab at it should really be commended. They also show that all we really needed was a sensor in a box with a lens mount and some way to get the information off the sensor (I know there is more to it but in essence that is it) so why didn't someone else try it before? I don't have the answers but I have my opinions. First we relied too much on big companies to deliver to the indie crowd when they really are focused on the masses and were never going to make a simple RAW camera at an affordable price. They also by their nature will seek to sell a crippled camera so they can sell another in 12 months time. RED understood this and often mocked their Philosophy, and rightly so, large corporations are not in the buisness to help the little guy and its niave to think they are. With that people were not directing their attention at the right kind of company like Black Magic or the many companies that were involved in some way with camera production. I mean think of all the companies these days that make a pro digital cameras for professionals or maybe the numerous companies making third party camera accessories. Maybe they should of been approached to make a budget camera. Also the talent on DVX maybe could of done things a lot sooner if there was colaboration. A good example is the guys who are playing with the GH2 on personal view, they are no fools and clearly know a lot about how cameras work.


So in my opinion the lesson learnt is don't rely on the big companies to solve our isses but direct our energy instead at the smaller compaines involved and also look to ourselves for solving out own problems. I don't know what other people think is the lesson we should learn from the frustrating last 5-10 years?
 
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If anything, I think the lesson is that a technology more or less in it's infancy can mature extremely rapidly once pressure - from consumers and competitors - is applied.
 
The Canon 5d MKll was the culprit. Red had a 2/3rd inch chip $3k camera ready to go and then the Canon came along with its full frame sensor. Jannard saw its popularity, got scared no one would want a 2/3rd inch chip and killed it. Even billionaires get scared and make mistakes. The 2/3rd inch scarlet was his perfect gateway drug in keeping a loyal purchasing base for his higher end cams. He blew it big time. And without Reds 2/3rd inch $3k cam to push the other companies, any future smaller chip raw cams got delayed.

Blackmagic saw an opening and to their credit realized a larger than 2/3rd inch or super 16mm chip was still a valid capable cinema imager, and since they have no other cam to protect, ran with it.

Watch the Dan Chung video where he interviews Canon's Westfall. Dan is almost jumping out of his skin trying not be be impolite regarding Canons pricing on their cinema cams. You won't see something disruptive like the BLaM cam from any of the majors because theres too much to protect with Red coming nearer to that kind of protectionism too.
 
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mico said:
The Canon 5d MKll was the culprit. Red had a 2/3rd inch chip $3k camera ready to go and then the Canon came along with its full frame sensor. Jannard saw its popularity, got scared no one would want a 2/3rd inch chip and killed it. Even billionaires get scared and make mistakes. The 2/3rd inch scarlet was his perfect gateway drug in keeping a loyal purchasing base for his higher end cams. He blew it big time.
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Even though I'm a fan of RED I think their is some truth in that. I always wished they just made the original Scarlet a few years back. I think they were worried they would tarnish their PRO base but I think like you say it actually could of enhanced it.
 
JMProductions said:
I don't know what other people think is the lesson we should learn from the frustrating last 5-10 years?
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I haven't had a "frustrating" last 5-10 years... I've had an extremely satisfying career using a wide variety of products. Why sit around being frustrated? Use what already exists. You could have been using a Red for the last four years if raw is your thing.

Anyone who's been stymied in their career while surrounded by the choices we've had, is likely going to be equally frustrated by the limitations of whatever new product comes on the market. The BlackMagic isn't perfect, it's got no overcranking, a smaller-than-35mm sensor, rolling shutter, etc. Are you going to be frustrated by those aspects?

Man, just pick a camera that does what you want and start shooting. All these cameras are plenty good enough.
 
Barry_Green said:
I haven't had a "frustrating" last 5-10 years... I've had an extremely satisfying career using a wide variety of products. Why sit around being frustrated? Use what already exists. You could have been using a Red for the last four years if raw is your thing.

Anyone who's been stymied in their career while surrounded by the choices we've had, is likely going to be equally frustrated by the limitations of whatever new product comes on the market. The BlackMagic isn't perfect, it's got no overcranking, a smaller-than-35mm sensor, rolling shutter, etc. Are you going to be frustrated by those aspects?

Man, just pick a camera that does what you want and start shooting. All these cameras are plenty good enough.
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I respectfully disagree. The only Cameras that have produced a pro level filmic image (and that is what I personally have wanted) have been in the 25,000+ price range. If RED had a $3,000 camera I believe we wouldn't be having this conversation and this thread wouldn't exist. If you want to name more than 10 movies in the last 5 years which have been made on a sub 5,000 camera that look in anyway decent I will agree with you. I guarantee there will be a bunch of successful indie flicks that use this camera in the next 5.
 
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But was anyone really expecting a jump from HDV to cinema grade digital with no increments in the middle? Did we just suddenly decide that the revolution started by the 5D was pointless? This was pretty much the perfect time to drop something like this. Besides, very few of us actually know what to do with a flat log image made for grading. When this comes out, you'll probably see a lot of people just shooting with Prores and DNxHD just for the easier workflow. The video cameras we have do most of what a majority of us already want and need.

If RED had a $3,000 camera I believe we wouldn't be having this conversation and this thread wouldn't exist.
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If they did, but they didn't. We wouldn't be having this conversation if the GH2 hack community managed to get raw footage out of that camera, either. Those things didn't happen. What did happen was an incremental build on the idea of single large sensor cameras. That's what everyone wanted.
 
Yes, and at some point in the near future there will be a super 35mm sensor camera at this price range and with these specs. In any case, I put in a pre-order for this, because this is what is here now.
 
JMProductions said:
I beg to differ. The only Cameras that have produced a pro level filmic image (and that is what I personally have wanted) have been in the 25,000+ price range. If RED had a $3,000 camera I believe we wouldn't be having this conversation and this thread wouldn't exist. If you want to name more than 10 movies in the last 5 years which have been made on a sub 5,000 camera that look in anyway decent I will agree with you. I guarantee there will be a bunch of successful indie flicks that use this camera in the next 5. Anyway you've derailed this thread now I expect. Any potential lessons offically unlearned.
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With respect, the "pro level filmic image" starts and stops with the ability of the operator. It doesn't reside in the camera. "The Raid Redemption" was shot with an AF100. You probably need to take a look. A lot of great movies were shot on a medium where the operator had to previsualize everything in his mind's eye. These guys used light meters and knew exposure, lighting and the tolerances of the many different types of media as well as you know your name. This media was called film. There are many bargains on excellent film cameras now and if you absolutely must have that filmic look, then a Beaulieu R16 may be just your cup of tea.

You will never shoot film with a video camera so you might as well learn to take advantage of what the medium gives you.
 
bonobored said:
With respect, the "pro level filmic image" starts and stops with the ability of the operator. It doesn't reside in the camera. "The Raid Redemption" was shot with an AF100. You probably need to take a look. A lot of great movies were shot on a medium where the operator had to previsualize everything in his mind's eye. These guys used light meters and knew exposure, lighting and the tolerances of the many different types of media as well as you know your name. This media was called film. There are many bargains on excellent film cameras now and if you absolutely must have that filmic look, then a Beaulieu R16 may be just your cup of tea.


You will never shoot film with a video camera so you might as well learn to take advantage of what the medium gives you.
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Your forgeting the last 5-10 years of digital cinema. The RED camera is in many ways producing an image that surpasses film. Why can't people with this tired opinion show me the blockbuster movies made on 'Video cameras' while 50% of the movies I watch in the Cinema these days are RED or Alexa. Red is not a Video camera, Alexa is not a video camera, the Black magic camera is not a video camera. The great thing about this camera is in theory this tired argument is redundent if people can't produce a cinematic image from this camera then yes NOW its time to give up and blame the operator.
 
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JMProductions said:
Utter nonsense you clearly haven't been aware of the last 5-10 years in Digital Cinema. The RED camera is in many ways producing an image that surpasses film. Why can't people with this tired opinion show me the blockbuster movies made on 'Video cameras' while 50% of the movies I watch in the Cinema these days are RED or Alexa. Red is not a Video camera, Alexa is not a video camera, the Black magic camera is not a video camera. The great thing about this camera is in theory this tired argument is redundent if people can't produce a cinematic image from this camera then yes NOW its time to give up and blame the operator.
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I got one. Act of Valor. Here's another where video cams were used. Black Swan, Red Tails, Captain America, Iron Man 2, and countless others have had SUB $5000 cams on set. Heres another. Slumdog Millionaire filmed on a 2/3's SI. Countless big budget films have these and Act of Valor was filmed primarily on the HDSLR.
ANd that will be increasing.
 
dustylense said:
I got one. Act of Valor. Here's another where video cams were used. Black Swan, Red Tails, Captain America, Iron Man 2, and countless others have had SUB $5000 cams on set. Heres another. Slumdog Millionaire filmed on a 2/3's SI. Countless big budget films have these and Act of Valor was filmed primarily on the HDSLR.
ANd that will be increasing.
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Oh behave yourself. A few wobbly shots in a largely professionaly shot movie does not make a professional film making tool. Oh and to finish my rant SI is not a video camera. (and costs a bundle)


*I just checked Act of Valor. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1591479/technical Come on if they decided on using the 5D then they wanted a certain video documentary look. You don't use Panavision lenses if your cash strapped. Silly...
 
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JMProductions said:
Oh behave yourself. A few wobbly shots in a largely professionaly shot movie does not make a professional film making tool. Oh and to finish my rant SI is not a video camera. (and costs a bundle)


*I just checked Act of Valor. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1591479/technical Come on if they decided on using the 5D then they wanted a certain video documentary look. You don't use Panavision lenses if your cash strapped. Silly...
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Actually, Shane shot with the 5D throughout the entire film, not on an occasional basis. He proposed this camera because he could have many multiple angles for high action scenes quite cheaply and with what he believed was a good quality image. Because of his insistence on this camera a film which was originally budgeted at a much higher figure for the production was brought in for something around $15 million, which I think made the producer's very happy. Further I believe he cut down some situations by a 6:1 ratio. In other words, what would have taken 6 days previously, took only one with multiple 5D's. This is what saved the money. I do not consider the film "documentary looking" for those portions. I think the image feels solid and the final result is quite solid. I suspect the general public felt the same. Of course that is my subjective opinion.
Almost certainly because of this specific film and director, Canon decided that there was a market in Hollywood for a 4K DSLR like the EOS 1D-C. In tight multiple angle situations the form factor and economy of technique is very useful.
 
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yoclay said:
Actually, Shane shot with the 5D throughout the entire film, not on an occasional basis. He proposed this camera because he could have many multiple angles for high action scenes quite cheaply and with what he believed was a good quality image. Because of his insistence on this camera a film which was originally budgeted at a much higher figure for the production was brought in for something around $15 million, which I think made the producer's very happy. Further I believe he cut down some situations by a 6:1 ratio. In other words, what would have taken 6 days previously, took only one with multiple 5D's. This is what saved the money. I do not consider the film "documentary looking" for those portions. I think the image feels solid and the final result is quite solid. I suspect the general public felt the same. Of course that is my subjective opinion.
Almost certainly because of this specific film and director, Canon decided that there was a market in Hollywood for a 4K DSLR like the EOS 1D-C. In tight multiple angle situations the form factor and economy of technique is very useful.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_shot_in_digital Now come back to reality.
 
dustylense said:
I got one. Act of Valor. Here's another where video cams were used. Black Swan, Red Tails, Captain America, Iron Man 2, and countless others have had SUB $5000 cams on set. Heres another. Slumdog Millionaire filmed on a 2/3's SI. Countless big budget films have these and Act of Valor was filmed primarily on the HDSLR.
ANd that will be increasing.
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SI2k shoots Cineform raw. It is not technically a video camera. By video I mean recording to an encoded YUV or RGB video format. Raw digital cinema is a fundamentally different medium and mindset from video, from acquisition to post software and workflows. The only common factor is both begin with a digital sensor.
The main reason practical raw motion cameras have not been in the broader market before now is the lack of compact recording media with capacities and transfer speeds necessary to handle the data.
 
I don't think it took long (few years). IMHO it even happened lightning fast!

DSLR video revolution clearly showed that there IS a market for affordable large sensor video/cinema camera and it took some years before some company catered for that market. Prior to that nobody knew if such a thing would sell in volume required to generate a profit so everyone played safe and catered for professionals only (known/tried market), nobody wanted to gamble with investing.

Demand - supply. Simple as that people... Simple as that!
 
Sorry but I'm with Barry, pick a camera and start shooting!
Most modern cameras far outshine the operators abilities.

Putting on the latest running outfit does not make one a track star with the ability to sprint like the wind.
Just like buying the latest cine camera does not impart one with magical film making abilities.

Either you have the talent, or you do not.

All the Best!

Dave
 
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