Why cant Panasonic AJ-HPX3700 record 4:4:4 to onboard media
- Thread starter tillhavis
- Start date
William_Robinette
Shallow Member
This is a dead horse, search around and you will find you answers, and there are a lot of good ones.
1920x1080 is very, very close to 2k and RED doesn't record 4:4:4, it records RAW. RED has a lot of pit falls too and there are many jobs Panasonic cameras would be better at then RED.
1920x1080 is very, very close to 2k and RED doesn't record 4:4:4, it records RAW. RED has a lot of pit falls too and there are many jobs Panasonic cameras would be better at then RED.
Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
What projects are you doing that you need 4:4:4?
For the people who need Native 1920x1080 in AVC Intra D5 level quality, the 3700 is it.
Hell, I saw HPX3000 footage at NAB that was blown up to 35mm at NAB last year for NatGeo.
It looked like it was acquired in 35mm, and I've shot both 35 and 16.
RED workflow isn't anywhere near as solid as the P2 workflow, and P2's acceptance by the market has shown this.
For the people who need Native 1920x1080 in AVC Intra D5 level quality, the 3700 is it.
Hell, I saw HPX3000 footage at NAB that was blown up to 35mm at NAB last year for NatGeo.
It looked like it was acquired in 35mm, and I've shot both 35 and 16.
RED workflow isn't anywhere near as solid as the P2 workflow, and P2's acceptance by the market has shown this.
stephengrum
New member
i am filming a movie during the next 6 months, I am using the panasonic AJ-HPX3700 and I need to know about uploading the data from the camera. I am not quite sure how it works. From what I've read the software in the camera works with PCs. I wanna edit the film using Final Cut Pro on a Mac. How do i convert or what do i need to do to successfully get the film off the camera and on to final cut pro?
Guys, I am a big fan of Panasonic......but I have to tell you...once you shoot with RED in a raw format it's extremely hard to go back to the old ways.....the amount of freedom you have for color corrections and image manipulation is awesome....not to mention the awesome results you get for keying.... And I don't know what workflow issues you are referring to....I can drop native r3d files in any of my editors (Finalt Cut, Premiere, VEgas and AE CS4 etc) just like I would with MXF.... I have to aggree that the AJ-HPX3700 is geared toward cinematic projects just like RED...but in my opinion the pana cam is actually inferior to the RED but yet costs way more...
William_Robinette
Shallow Member
Sprocketboy
Well-known member
I have to agree with William here, but price wise, the panny 3700 is still too expensive for price/performance next to the RED.
The trade off is that you have to work slower on the set with RED. It has narrow range for lighting. It shoots as though the end product is on reversal film. That's not for me. I don't like tip toeing during production while the meter is ticking. Also, reviewing footage is an inconvenience on the RED and the workflow is still too convoluted. The 2k footage on the RED does not match up to the quality of 2K from a 3700. You have to shoot 4K and scale down to get the superior results.
If I'm working on low-budget production - I would rent a Panny package over the RED, so I can actually save money moving faster on the set. RED rents out the same price and you have to work much slower. If you have the time to shoot slowly and methodically, RED can be a wonderful option because you can actually own it at its low selling price.
The trade off is that you have to work slower on the set with RED. It has narrow range for lighting. It shoots as though the end product is on reversal film. That's not for me. I don't like tip toeing during production while the meter is ticking. Also, reviewing footage is an inconvenience on the RED and the workflow is still too convoluted. The 2k footage on the RED does not match up to the quality of 2K from a 3700. You have to shoot 4K and scale down to get the superior results.
If I'm working on low-budget production - I would rent a Panny package over the RED, so I can actually save money moving faster on the set. RED rents out the same price and you have to work much slower. If you have the time to shoot slowly and methodically, RED can be a wonderful option because you can actually own it at its low selling price.
Dino
Veteran
The Panasonic HPX3700 and HPX2700 have an ASA rating of 400-500, RED ONE is 250-320, both have a 10 stop latitude if using AVC Intra 100 in the case of Panasonic.
When RED ONE does high frame rates, the sensor size becomes smaller, limiting resolution down to 2K for the 120 fps maximum.
The HPX3700 outperformed the RED ONE in some areas that have yet to be released to the public in the ASC/PGA camera evaluation tests, but it's known that the 3700 excelled in contrast range. The 3700/2700 are much easier to use ergonomically, offer all kinds of menu driven image control(including remotely) and actually process the image with circuits like hard clip, knee, detail, gamma, gain structure, matrix, white shading, while the RED ONE continues to evolve with each build, but requires much more post-production finessing. The 3700/2700 can record for over 13 hours at 1080/24PN with 5)64Gb P2 cards, require smaller file sizes, and have a proven workflow that suits projects from news to feature films.
The Panasonic products are very reliable, especially the P2 cameras. No need to reboot, or worry about overheating, or vibration. There are some projects where shallow DOF is not wanted. RED ONE suits film people well in many cases, Panasonic cameras suit a wider variety of production types due to their ENG video heritage.
The pricing of the HPX3700 has dropped in half with a camcorder trade-in until Sept. 30, so RED ONE has certainly had an effect, as have palmcorders and VDSLR cameras.
The Panasonic P2 Varicams are the better solution for many of my clients, that's why I recently bought an HPX2700.
When RED ONE does high frame rates, the sensor size becomes smaller, limiting resolution down to 2K for the 120 fps maximum.
The HPX3700 outperformed the RED ONE in some areas that have yet to be released to the public in the ASC/PGA camera evaluation tests, but it's known that the 3700 excelled in contrast range. The 3700/2700 are much easier to use ergonomically, offer all kinds of menu driven image control(including remotely) and actually process the image with circuits like hard clip, knee, detail, gamma, gain structure, matrix, white shading, while the RED ONE continues to evolve with each build, but requires much more post-production finessing. The 3700/2700 can record for over 13 hours at 1080/24PN with 5)64Gb P2 cards, require smaller file sizes, and have a proven workflow that suits projects from news to feature films.
The Panasonic products are very reliable, especially the P2 cameras. No need to reboot, or worry about overheating, or vibration. There are some projects where shallow DOF is not wanted. RED ONE suits film people well in many cases, Panasonic cameras suit a wider variety of production types due to their ENG video heritage.
The pricing of the HPX3700 has dropped in half with a camcorder trade-in until Sept. 30, so RED ONE has certainly had an effect, as have palmcorders and VDSLR cameras.
The Panasonic P2 Varicams are the better solution for many of my clients, that's why I recently bought an HPX2700.
Christian m
Well-known member
I think the discussion of price for high end Panasonic/Sony Vs. RED is kind of stupid. Stupid because by the time you are finished adding support and break out boxes to get industry standard sizes connectors....the price has risen significantly.
RED is a digital cinema camera, NOT a video camera. Hpx2700/3000/3700 are video cameras, with a lot of features geared towards filmlike production, much faster than with RED.
The great thing with Panasonic whether it's the 300, 500 or 3700, you can deliver very fast regardless of if it's news, docu, commercial and so on. Also both Panasonic and Sony usually deliver a thoroughly tested product, it will not break down...or crash...or need a reboot which takes 30 seconds.
RED for now is not the tool for me, but it's a great tool for what it's meant to do. So far i'm more into adding a Phantom HD to my gear for super slowmo...
Speaking of 4:4:4...it will be interesting to see what Panasonic wil make of its announced Avc-ultra. At NAB time their blog mentioned, 1080p50/60 4:2:2 10bit and 1080p24 / 2K24P 4:4:4 12bit......
RED is a digital cinema camera, NOT a video camera. Hpx2700/3000/3700 are video cameras, with a lot of features geared towards filmlike production, much faster than with RED.
The great thing with Panasonic whether it's the 300, 500 or 3700, you can deliver very fast regardless of if it's news, docu, commercial and so on. Also both Panasonic and Sony usually deliver a thoroughly tested product, it will not break down...or crash...or need a reboot which takes 30 seconds.
RED for now is not the tool for me, but it's a great tool for what it's meant to do. So far i'm more into adding a Phantom HD to my gear for super slowmo...
Speaking of 4:4:4...it will be interesting to see what Panasonic wil make of its announced Avc-ultra. At NAB time their blog mentioned, 1080p50/60 4:2:2 10bit and 1080p24 / 2K24P 4:4:4 12bit......
Dino
Veteran
Christian, I agree with your points. I like the fact that I can shoot most anywhere in the world and know that Panasonic or Sony will have a service facility and parts availability infrastructure. Fujinon has always provided great service, including loaner lenses.
Camera technology is going to move faster and faster. I had to think hard about spending what I did on an HPX2700. There are many who are new to video production who haven't had much experience with the benefits of 2/3" ENG cameras. I consider the trade-in price of the 3700 and the price I paid for an unopened B-stock 2700 a pretty good value considering what SD 2/3" camcorders used to cost and what these HD cameras are capable of.
Camera technology is going to move faster and faster. I had to think hard about spending what I did on an HPX2700. There are many who are new to video production who haven't had much experience with the benefits of 2/3" ENG cameras. I consider the trade-in price of the 3700 and the price I paid for an unopened B-stock 2700 a pretty good value considering what SD 2/3" camcorders used to cost and what these HD cameras are capable of.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
Too many people have "spec-envy". I have shot with the RED One and while it is an interesting camera, it is a total PITA to work with and the post workflow continues to be tedious. The 3700 with the trade-in is an amazing value and you do have to admit, whether you buy the 3700 with the trade-in OR a RED One, you are much more in the $50,000.00 to $60,000.00 range for a working package.
I have worked over the years with HDCAM, HDCAM SR and D5 and I personally feel that 4:4:4 color sampling is much more important in post than in production. Anyone talented with a good story to tell can use any of these medium to high-end cameras and the end result will be great. I think we have reached the point to where we are splitting hairs. Nobody in the entire production workflow and in the viewing audience will ever see the difference between 4:2:2 color space or 4:4:4 in the camera, it's just not that important to creating great images. It helps in heavy compositing, that is about it. So I guess if you are shooting "Sin City" style, perhaps it makes a difference, but in 99% of production, who cares?
Even measurebators often cannot tell the difference in an A/B/random blind taste test.
Dan
I have worked over the years with HDCAM, HDCAM SR and D5 and I personally feel that 4:4:4 color sampling is much more important in post than in production. Anyone talented with a good story to tell can use any of these medium to high-end cameras and the end result will be great. I think we have reached the point to where we are splitting hairs. Nobody in the entire production workflow and in the viewing audience will ever see the difference between 4:2:2 color space or 4:4:4 in the camera, it's just not that important to creating great images. It helps in heavy compositing, that is about it. So I guess if you are shooting "Sin City" style, perhaps it makes a difference, but in 99% of production, who cares?
Even measurebators often cannot tell the difference in an A/B/random blind taste test.
Dan
I recently purchased a HPX 3700 after using one of the prototypes. We have been shooting P2 DVCPro HD for the last several years. Let me tell you that the images from the 3700 are stunning.
One of my associates has worked on several productions using the RED. He has a number of RED horror stories. While the RED can shoot wonderful pictures, it can be very fickle. In one case, the weather got cold (30ºF) and the camera simply shut down, refusing to work. Not a good thing with cast and crew waiting.
As for using a Mac, there are no real problems. If you are using AVC intra, you must have an intel Mac. Use the Panasonic P2cms software to copy your cards to a "Dump Drive" then use log and transfer (FCP6+) to bring your clips into FCP. Edit your project in ProRes 422HQ and you will be good to go.
We have been doing this for some time and it works very well. One more thing. Get good glass. That will go a long way to giving you great pictures!
Christian m
Well-known member
The resolution race to some extent has slowed down in the world of stills photography, maybe we will get here soon with the spec race in video?
Also i think it's kind of interesting to see the impression audience gets. In Oslo here in Norway one Europe's first all digital cinemas opened a year ago. And the measurebators (good expression Dan) usually think it has to be 4K to be that good, ofcourse it's a 30k lumens Barco 2K projector that gives you that stunning images with some pretty good audio...with some punch in it to.
Numbers and specs only get you "that far". That's way I do not care if dvcprohd and avc-i "only" are 4:2:2 or if the hpx500 don't do "real" 1080p. Also why I'm considering the Sachtler alu HD legs and Vision 100 head from vinten, and not putting that money aside for a 1080p upgrade earlier.
They say the devil are in the details, but I'm not sure he'(or maybe she...) are in the resolution or colorspace details...
Also i think it's kind of interesting to see the impression audience gets. In Oslo here in Norway one Europe's first all digital cinemas opened a year ago. And the measurebators (good expression Dan) usually think it has to be 4K to be that good, ofcourse it's a 30k lumens Barco 2K projector that gives you that stunning images with some pretty good audio...with some punch in it to.
Numbers and specs only get you "that far". That's way I do not care if dvcprohd and avc-i "only" are 4:2:2 or if the hpx500 don't do "real" 1080p. Also why I'm considering the Sachtler alu HD legs and Vision 100 head from vinten, and not putting that money aside for a 1080p upgrade earlier.
They say the devil are in the details, but I'm not sure he'(or maybe she...) are in the resolution or colorspace details...
And when did 30F get cold?! It's about that temprature outside of the cabin where I'm at work know...and it' not even winter. I wonder how the RED copes with -22F...my old Z1 worked like it was summer time last winter, and P2 seem to cope with it to. It's not cold until parts start falling of the camera...and boiling water transforms into snow when thrown into the air.:grin:
Last edited:
NorthernFilmMaker
Active member
Last winter I shot some stock for a client with my HPX500 at -25 C.... The camera performed flawlessly! I think it was more like -35 C with the wind chill... It was cold!
Barry_Green
Moderator
Go on ebay and buy something. All you need is a 2/3" tape or disc-based camera. Doesn't even have to be HD. Go find an old betaSP camera. I saw a BVW D600 on there for about $1500. Buy it and then trade it in and get the HPX3700 for the discounted price.
