Why buy a mixer?

[Rippie]

All true but the most important issue is getting (and keeping) the right microphone in the right place. Who is doing that while the first person is shooting and the only other crew person is "mixing"?

The finest mixer on the planet and the best digital recoder known to mankind will NOT rescue poor sound from the wrong microphone or the incorrect application of even the proper microphone. THAT is the primary issue with acquiring decent sound, particularly given the starting situation of the OP. I still say that unless/until the primary issue is addressed all else is secondary at best. Now the OP may already have a great collection of microphones and knows how to use them to best advantage, but he didn't mention it here.

Hmm not sure of your first question?
95% of my jobs im mixing and booming at the same time. As I think I can
safely say the majority of people in this business do.

I dont think anyone is questioning whether or not knowing how to actually use audio gear (putting a mic in the right place..etc) is more important.
I think thats a given, in that you would be just as screwed no matter what you record to if you dont know what you're doing.
The poster was asking about a piece of gear and peoples opinions on it.

 

[Ted Spencer]

RED and HVX.

Even if they do use the cameras preamps, I've shot and done tests with both of them. The S/N ratio was better with a mixer with each camera and going line-in. Whether that's technically "possible" doesn't really matter to me. I just go with what sounds best (along with the other reasons to use a mixer like riding gain, more than 2 mics, better limiters, ect...).

The HVX's block diagram, on page 235 of this document:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/14670404/PanasonicAghvx200p-an-e-Mc2cAghvx202enParts2cServiceManual

...does appear to indicate that the line inputs are padded and then fed into the mic preamps. Note that they're labeled "LINE/ATT", which would stand for "attenuated", aka "padded" (translation: volume-reduced).

So while I haven't personally compared the two methods it would seem unlikely at best that a mixer fed to the line in would be quieter than a mic in directly, since the signal path would be identical aside from all the additional gain and attenuation stages, which would *add noise*, not reduce it. To wit, here is a comparison of the two signal path scenarios:

A: Directly into the camera, the mic gets:

1. Amplified (camera preamp)
2. Routed through the remainder of the camera's analog audio stages
3. Digitized by the camera's A/D converter

B: With an external mixer, the mic gets:

1. Amplified (mixer preamp)
2. Attenuated (mixer summing stage part 1)
3. Amplified (mixer summing stage part 2)
4. Amplified or at least run through a unity gain output opamp (mixer output stage)
5. Attenuated (camera line in)
6. Amplified (camera preamp)
7. Routed through the remainder of the camera's analog audio stages
8. Digitized by the camera's A/D converter

In A, *only* the mic itself and the camera's electronics generate noise.

In B, the mixer's preamp, summing, and output stages, *plus* the mic and the camera's electronics generate noise.

Which should be quieter?

If the answer is "A" then there's something wrong with the gain structure. Most likely, the camera-menu gain setting is wrong for the mic in question. If it's set too high, you'd be forced to make up the gain with the preamp, which will generate noise.

*As long as gain is managed properly*, it is physically impossible for scenario "A" to be quieter than scenario "B".

 

[Rippie]

Im sure this has been mentioned but the biggest reason to use a mixer
is the fact that if you're doing your job you're constantly adjusting the levels on the mixer
to put out a consistent level. Obviously impossible to do using just the camera pots.

 

[Richard Crowley]

Hmm not sure of your first question?
95% of my jobs im mixing and booming at the same time. As I think I can
safely say the majority of people in this business do.

Right, but the OP said specifically that he was NOT "in this business".

I dont think anyone is questioning whether or not knowing how to actually use audio gear (putting a mic in the right place..etc) is more important.
I think thats a given, in that you would be just as screwed no matter what you record to if you dont know what you're doing.
The poster was asking about a piece of gear and peoples opinions on it.

Yes, I agree with all that, except that the OP specifically said that he was just getting started in the business and that the crew would consist of only himself and his wife. My assumption (perhaps incorrect, but none of us know) is that he was placing a premium on use of high-end equipment to achieve good results.

If the question is simply, is Sound Devices equipment good, then the simple answer that nobody would dispute is: of course it is.

But the OP stated that he was "concerned about getting the best possible sound" and it doesn't take a SD 788T to "get the best possible sound" nor does simply using a 788 get you "the best possible sound". He also expressed the belief that he cannot get good sound by recording to the camcorder and most of have proved that is simply not true.

I am not disputing anything you said, I am merely questioning whether is really applicable to the OP and his wife doing their first documentary with no previous experience.

 

[Fresh Meat]

Right, but the OP said specifically that he was NOT "in this business".

Yes, I agree with all that, except that the OP specifically said that he was just getting started in the business and that the crew would consist of only himself and his wife. My assumption (perhaps incorrect, but none of us know) is that he was placing a premium on use of high-end equipment to achieve good results.

If the question is simply, is Sound Devices equipment good, then the simple answer that nobody would dispute is: of course it is.

But the OP stated that he was "concerned about getting the best possible sound" and it doesn't take a SD 788T to "get the best possible sound" nor does simply using a 788 get you "the best possible sound". He also expressed the belief that he cannot get good sound by recording to the camcorder and most of have proved that is simply not true.

I am not disputing anything you said, I am merely questioning whether is really applicable to the OP and his wife doing their first documentary with no previous experience.

Hi Richard, Hi Rippie, and All,

Yes Richard, you are right. I wasn't clear about my operational experience or intentions as I could have been.
I am very new, but I practice all the time. I am in Iraq and I have at least 4 hours a day to spare.
Yes, as Rippie said, I was just looking for an opinion on the 788T.
I do understand and implement proper mic selection and placement. I do have at least 7 microphones to choose from including several lavs, wired and radio, several booms. No Zep yet…hmmmmm
As far as crew is concerned, what I meant was, to begin with our crew is only us. My wife is Chinese and I own a house in China. Our house community is next to a media university in Lushun, China,
near Dalian. So I'm more than sure we can find many willing volunteers to work with us.
My reasons for going two system is exactly as Rippie said. Freedom for camera operator and sound person. Freedom to mix as I wish. More room for capturing multiple tracks.
I'm sure with an extensive selection, I can find the right mic, or combination, for any situation, wide or near.
And, I want the best recorder I can buy, because I believe that sound is paramount. I hate to watch anything with crappy sound. I know I will make mistakes. Certainly.
But I don’t want to make a mistake I would regret, and that would be using equipment that will not capture sound at its possible best. I know, I have a major role and responsibility in this.

Besides all that…………..This thing Looks really cool! Doesn't it?

 

[8string]

I recently bought the MixPre and love the fact that I don't have to diddle the volume controls on the camera while shooting. (I shoot either alone or with one other person, almost always.) This alone was the reason I bought the unit. Limiters are another. Bass rolloff as mentioned is another (so you won't have to deal with the mic to set it). The MixPre for my needs is great, though additional inputs are always welcome, if you can afford more money. I would never again want to shoot, other than gun and run, without a mixer. It just makes things 'better'. And making your sound better is one of those issues that separates the pros from us semi-pros (G), or amateurs, or whatever we call ourselves...