Why buy a mixer?

justmarvin

justmarvin

Well-known member
Still learning the ropes when comes to Sound.

I have my mics and now going to purchase my boom and zeppelin stuff next.

I was wondering about Mixers. Why exactly do we need to buy a mixer which could cost about a $1,000+

It seems a lot of people just connect the Microphone cable straight into the camera. How much of a difference would a mixer make? Benefits? And if I do get a mixer, where can I find more information on how to make the most of it by understanding how to tweak the sound, etc.

And can you guys give some Mixer recommendations? From budget to pricey but excellent Mixers (but not over-kill), as well as recommended places to purchase 'em.

Thanks,

Marvin
 
Cameras are built for video, and sound is secondary. Some cameras have better sound components than others, but none have components equal to professional grade audio gear.

Riding levels and signal routing (both nearly impossible when going straight to camera) justify using a mixer in many cases. Although the limiters, preamp quality, and overall durability of audio mixers are huge as well.

There's other people that can give more experienced answers than I, but just as a starting point are you looking for a board mixer with faders (which would require a sound mixer sitting down at a cart to mix) or the run-and-gun box style mixer with knobs than can be operated out of a bag? And how many channels are you likely to need?
 
The most compelling reason to buy a mixer is when you are using more than two microphones (which could conceivably be plugged into the camcorder.)

A mixer allows not only combining more than two mics, but also much more convenient control of the individual mix of each microphone, and much easier monitoring of levels (with the metering on the mixer) and probably better monitoring of the audio (with headphones, etc.)

Unfortunately, since almost no camcorders have proper line-level inputs (only mic-inputs padded down to line-level), an outboard mixer does not necessarily provide a "better" (lower noise, lower distortion, etc.) complete audio path because it is inevitably getting fed into the same mic preamp inputs on the camcorder. This is why most high-end productions record sound on a separate recorder ("double-system" sound).

You didn't mention what kind of mics you have or what kind of camera, or what kind of production you are doing. Without any of these details we are limited to very generic responses which may not be very helpful to you.

Note that the kind of mixer one would need for a one-man band shooting "run-n-gun" news footage of the latest sleazy politician leaving the courthouse is much different than a full dramatic production with a 3-person audio crew, etc. or a "reality" show on a desert island with a dozen wireless mics, etc.
 
Thanks guys,

Richard Crowley said:
what kind of mics you have or what kind of camera, or what kind of production you are doing.
Click to expand...

I have an SE300B body + AKG CK91 and CK93 cardioid and hypercardioid, and a CK98 shotgun mic.

Camera is a DVX100b, but am also planning to upgrade in the future to one of the Panasonic HD cameras.

The production I am wanting to do is small crew, independent dramatic features, shorts, etc. And also planning to shoot monologues and actor's slates/interviews.


Note that the kind of mixer one would need for a one-man band shooting "run-n-gun" news footage of the latest sleazy politician leaving the courthouse is much different than a full dramatic production with a 3-person audio crew, etc. or a "reality" show on a desert island with a dozen wireless mics, etc.
Click to expand...

Would a one-man shooting "run n gun" style still opt for a Mixer? Or just hook up direct to the camera?

The most compelling reason to buy a mixer is when you are using more than two microphones (which could conceivably be plugged into the camcorder.)

A mixer allows not only combining more than two mics, but also much more convenient control of the individual mix of each microphone, and much easier monitoring of levels (with the metering on the mixer) and probably better monitoring of the audio (with headphones, etc.)

Unfortunately, since almost no camcorders have proper line-level inputs (only mic-inputs padded down to line-level), an outboard mixer does not necessarily provide a "better" (lower noise, lower distortion, etc.) complete audio path because it is inevitably getting fed into the same mic preamp inputs on the camcorder. This is why most high-end productions record sound on a separate recorder ("double-system" sound).
Click to expand...

So if I'm using only One or Two microphones then would a Mixer still benefit me? And regarding your second comment that because most cameras don't have proper line-levels that an on-board mixer won't provide a better audio path. Would you clarify on this, does this mean that you wouldn't necessarily get better audio quality from a mixer? But I read somewhere that simply hooking up your mics to a Mixer connected to your camera would be a major improvement in audio quality already?

Do you mean then, for best audio quality, it is recommended to have the mixer go into a separate recorder and not straight to the camera? And what about sync, will there be any chance of sync issues with the audio recorder and the video camera? What is a good recorder to get, by the way. Also, what if your Camera does have line level? Does that mean a separate recorder wouldn't make a difference? You can at least switch the DVX100b from "mic" to "line" level on the camera.

Gohanto said:
Riding levels and signal routing (both nearly impossible when going straight to camera) justify using a mixer in many cases.
Click to expand...

Can you explain more about signal routing? Not too sure I fully understand what that is or how it is a benefit.

just as a starting point are you looking for a board mixer with faders (which would require a sound mixer sitting down at a cart to mix) or the run-and-gun box style mixer with knobs than can be operated out of a bag? And how many channels are you likely to need?
Click to expand...

I usually invest in a mixer that will last a while and will be compatible to my new gear when I upgrade and not find myself in the position to buy a new one. I probably only need two microphones / channels. And just from the sound of it, the run-n-gun box style sounds more versatile and thus more beneficial so I'd say the knobs, unless there was a compelling reason to go otherwise?

I was just looking around, and the Sound Devices 302 sounds nice. Or is this over-kill.

Thanks again!

Marv
 
I have a Sound Devices MixPre ($665.00) and it not only brings up your signal to where you can set your camera to "line" level input, which greatly reduces the noise level, it also has 2 limiting stages which make it virtually unclippable. You also have a return in so you can monitor your camera's audio with a decent volume (unlike weak headphone outs on most cameras). And don't forget 2 different bass roll-off frequencies to tame a rumble coming from the mics. I even spent 150.00 to Greg Winter to have mine modified so it can be placed between the camera and the tripod.

Mixers = good.
 
Richard Crowley said:
almost no camcorders have proper line-level inputs (only mic-inputs padded down to line-level), an outboard mixer does not necessarily provide a "better" (lower noise, lower distortion, etc.) complete audio path because it is inevitably getting fed into the same mic preamp inputs on the camcorder. This is why most high-end productions record sound on a separate recorder ("double-system" sound).
Click to expand...

That's not really accurate at all. There are a lot of prosumer and professional cameras with proper line-level input. Just not the ones below $500.

Running mic's into a 302 and then a line level feed to camera is what many crews do and it works very well in most cases. The biggest reasons to record to a separate mixer are generally...
1. More than 2 channels
2. Back-up
3. 24-bit audio in most recorders vs. 16-bit on cameras is a quality difference (although some cameras are now 24-bit), but relatively minor considering the cost and/or time of timecode or sync'ing to a slate.

Signal routing though, is being able to send different mixes of the signal to different people. Like recording lavs and boom to the left and right channel on the camera, but only send the boom channel to video village. Another handy thing to do is take the headphone jack on the camera and run it back to the mixer's "return" jack. You listen through that so you know exactly what the camera hears (otherwise if a cable gets tripped between the mixer and the camera, you wouldn't know it).

To your question though, the 302 is a top quality in-the-bag mixer used by many professionals. I know Mythbusters uses 2 of them linked together for all their mixing. That would be an excellent choice.

Just on run-and-gun in general, the limiters on a mixer help protect you from clipping the audio signal so that actually simplifies the process and protects the signal even if someone starts yelling or sets levels slightly off (dialog that's hit the limiters is WAY better than dialog that's clipped digitally).

(I own and use a MixPre and while it's good for the money, the extra cash for the 302 is definitely worth it on production sound.)
 
Prove it

Prove it

Gohanto said:
That's not really accurate at all. There are a lot of prosumer and professional cameras with proper line-level input. Just not the ones below $500.
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OK, I challenge you to cite a recent production video camcorder at any price that has genuine line-level inputs, NOT simply switchable pads ahead of the mic preamps. My $5,000 Sony DSR-300 does not have real line inputs, and I have yet to see ANY camcorder that does. At any price.

Audio has always been an afterthought with video equipment designers, and it probably will always be. They know that users who really need high-quality audio are going to use double-system sound and never depend on the camcorder tracks.
 
My VX2100 is true pure line level. Though I have the Greg Winter mod to make it that way.

Not Sure if my Sony EX1 is pure line level.
 
Chadfish said:
My VX2100 is true pure line level. Though I have the Greg Winter mod to make it that way.
Click to expand...

Exactly my point. Thanks for confirming.

Chadfish said:
Not Sure if my Sony EX1 is pure line level.
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It is NOT. I have an EX1 and I like it a lot. And it has decent audio for an ordinary video camcorder. But if I need really good audio (particularly for musical productions), I use my Edirol R4 (if I don't need more than 4 tracks), or my Alesis HD-24 (if I need up to 24 tracks).

Any camcorder that uses the SAME input connector for both mic level and line level has a 99.99999% chance of simply using a pad ahead of the mic preamp. Some camcorders also switch the gain structure of the mic preamp, but it is still a compromise. Video equipment is video equipment. Never designed for high quality audio recording.
 
Yes I have the boss' R4 Pro for serious recordings. Though I am thinking about getting a Hoad Brothers Modded R-44.
 
Hi Richard,

For best audio I would need to record out to a separate recorder because there is no camera that has pure line level? Is the audio quality a drastic improvement that would make a noticeable difference quality wise to the average person or just to the pro audiophile?

Also, still kinda confused about this:

justmarvin said:
richard crowley said:
Unfortunately, since almost no camcorders have proper line-level inputs (only mic-inputs padded down to line-level), an outboard mixer does not necessarily provide a "better" (lower noise, lower distortion, etc.) complete audio path because it is inevitably getting fed into the same mic preamp inputs on the camcorder. This is why most high-end productions record sound on a separate recorder ("double-system" sound).
Click to expand...

And regarding your second comment that because most cameras don't have proper line-levels that an on-board mixer won't provide a better audio path. Would you clarify on this, does this mean that you wouldn't necessarily get better audio quality from a mixer? But I read somewhere that simply hooking up your mics to a Mixer connected to your camera would be a major improvement in audio quality already?
Click to expand...

So having a mixer VS. the mics connected direct to a camera (that you say non has proper line levels anyway), are you saying it doesn't make a big difference? That's probably not what you are meaning, right? But if you would clarify so I understand better that would be great.

Thanks in advance,

Marvin
 
There is no reason to buy a mixer. But on the off chance you might need one, RME digital recorders have Totalmix built in.
 
DrDave said:
There is no reason to buy a mixer. But on the off chance you might need one, RME digital recorders have Totalmix built in.
Click to expand...

If one "needs" a mixer, then there IS a reason to buy one.

When recording straight to a camera there are plenty of reasons to buy a mixer. A good mixer will always improve your signal to noise ratio. Note I said a "good" mixer. Any Sound Devices mixer will improve any camera's audio quality for all the reasons listed above. As far as recorders go - most recorders will benefit from having a good mixer delivering a line level signal. Check out taper forums and you'll find lots of mixer talk. If one can't tell the difference I suppose it doesn't matter, but be sure that there is a difference.
 
justmarvin said:
For best audio I would need to record out to a separate recorder because there is no camera that has pure line level? Is the audio quality a drastic improvement that would make a noticeable difference quality wise to the average person or just to the pro audiophile?
Click to expand...

YES, for BEST audio quality a proper audio recorder will almost always produce better recordings than most any video camcorder. There may be some really good camcorders, and there are certainly some really lousy sound recorders.

NO, not just because there is no pure line-level input. That is just one symptom of the general case that video camcorders are not primarily designed for recording audio. It is a secondary convenience that designers must add or they won't be able to sell us the video part.

NO, it is not a dramatic improvement (all else being equal). The length and tone of this (and similar) discussions may be conveying the wrong impression that this is something worth obsessing about. IMHO, is it NOT worth the obsession.

Using an external mixer, a premium-name/price mixer, and even recording double-system don't even make my top-5 list of priority items to concern myself with when thinking about how to get the best audio. The top three in my book are:

  1. Have a good-quality microphone of the proper type for the scene at hand. This may mean that you need several/many different kinds of microphones for different situations. Audio pros who work in the big-leagues have many $1000s or $10,000s worth of microphones in their collections. Good quality microphones, and a variety selection of them are their primary stock in trade. Mixers come and go, and recorders come and go, but good microphones stay in their collections for decades.
  2. Try to avoid recording in sound-hostile situations. Go out on scouting tours and make special note of ambient noises. Advise the director and/or producer of the hazards of recording in noisy locations, and the trade-off expense of having to fix bad audio in post-production.
  3. Use the microphone(s) properly. Get them in the right place, at the right distance. This will almost always require some interaction with other departments (lighting, director, etc.) and maybe some trade-offs. Only the director (or producer) can make the ultimate trade-off decisions, but as the sound person, it is your responsibility to ensure that they are fully informed about the sound situation and implications.

Of course, if you are a one-man crew, then it is easier to see the whole situation and make the decisions. But OTOH, it also requires explicitly thinking from the sound perspective to be sure you consider all the issues and come to the best decision.

justmarvin said:
So having a mixer VS. the mics connected direct to a camera (that you say non has proper line levels anyway), are you saying it doesn't make a big difference? That's probably not what you are meaning, right? But if you would clarify so I understand better that would be great. Marvin
Click to expand...

I started out in audio before getting involved with video. I still do almost as much location audio production as video. I have a good collection of audio equipment including many microphones and mixers. But I don't own a proper "production mixer". Perhaps because I haven't yet found a situation where I really had to have one. The simpler kinds of shots that I do with a single camera don't have critical sound requirements. Things like interviews, event videography, and even scripted film-style single-camera shooting. The kinds of things I do with multi-cameras tend to be bigger events where I will probably be using something like my Alesis HD24 hard drive, 24 channel recorder, etc.

IMHO, at least for the kinds of production I do, the same amount of $$$ spent on another good microphone will have a far more noticeable benefit to the sound track than buying a production mixer.

OTOH, remember that the quality of the mic preamps is NOT the only benefit of using an external mixer. Most certainly, if you have a dedicated sound-mixer crew-person the ability to ride gains and meter levels independent of the camera is a huge benefit.

Beware, however of MONITORING with the mixer. Just because it sounds good in the mixer doesn't mean that is what the camcorder is recording. Nothing beats monitoring on the final recording device whether that is the camcorder or any other apparatus (recorder, computer, etc.) Do I need to repeat that for emphasis?

If I do need a production mixer one of these days, I'm willing to take a chance on something like this... http://www.signvideo.com/fpamxr.htm
 
Chadfish said:
If one "needs" a mixer, then there IS a reason to buy one.

When recording straight to a camera there are plenty of reasons to buy a mixer.
Click to expand...

Yes I can't disagree with either of those statements.

Chadfish said:
A good mixer will always improve your signal to noise
ratio.
Click to expand...

I cannot see how that can possibly be true, even with the very best mixer on the planet. For the reasons already discussed. The noise from the camcorder mic preamp will be added to anything you feed through it. Even if it came from a perfect, gold-plated mixer.

Chadfish said:
Note I said a "good" mixer. Any Sound Devices mixer will improve any camera's audio quality for all the reasons listed above. As far as recorders go - most recorders will benefit from having a good mixer delivering a line level signal. Check out taper forums and you'll find lots of mixer talk. If one can't tell the difference I suppose it doesn't matter, but be sure that there is a difference.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Be sure that there is a difference before spending your $$$. In my book, a better microphone, or even getting the microphone closer will always make a more audible difference than any mixer will. YMMV
 
Richard Crowley said:
I cannot see how that can possibly be true, even with the very best mixer on the planet. For the reasons already discussed. The noise from the camcorder mic preamp will be added to anything you feed through it. Even if it came from a perfect, gold-plated mixer.
Click to expand...


Richard, in the scenario I was referring to, but didn't specify, was about plugging a mic straight into a camera at Mic level. Noisy preamps or not, having them set to line, and feeding them a line level signal will have less noise than setting them to mic and putting the same mic straight in. That is if your mixer is not adding more noise than the line level setting reduces noise by. That was awkward sounding, but I think I was more clear.

All being said, I have yet to use a mixer with my EX1. I get nice audio for interviews, and with proper technique and level adjustment one can defeat many of the noise issues people get. If I was doing dialogue for film, with no music background - just voice alone, I would use an external recorder.
 
Chadfish said:
... having them set to line, and feeding them a line level signal will have less noise than setting them to mic and putting the same mic straight in.
Click to expand...

Sorry, that's where you lose me. Unless you do an after-market hack to the camcorder there is no way of getting audio into most camcorders that does NOT go through the mic preamp. Doesn't matter whether the switch says "Mic" or "Line". That is the fundamental reason why using any kind of external equipment cannot possibly reduce the noise level.

The very best you can hope to achieve is to not increase it. And the best way of ensuring that you don't increase it is to eschew additional active stages and plug the mic directly into the camcorder.
 
OK Richard. The noise stays the same. I get that. Going back to my pre mod VX2100 - I set it to mic, and plugged in a mic - definite noise there. Then I set it to line, and everything turns down but feeding a louder +4db signal from my line level mixer results in a better signal to noise ratio.

The noise is still there, but the S/N ratio is better. So in one's final recording it sounds like less noise. I heard it. If there was no difference they wouldn't put the option there.
 
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