why are VTR's so expensive?

I was thinking more of archival library purposes. Yes, Hard Drives are cheap, but I've got nearly a thousand of them here. It would not be practical to swap them regularly.

In scenarios where it's practical, I think you guys are exactly right. Hard Drive is certainly cheaper and easier.

Question for you though. If you lost your machine to some malady (virus, fire, etc.) how hard or easy would it be for you to mount that hard drive on another machine?
 
I came across this thread searching for the key word "Heads"... I'm curious to know if I should be capturing my video on my pc using my dvx100? Is that going to be to much wear on the heads over time? I put a lot of emphasis on buying a used DVX100b with low hours, and now that I've got a DVX, I have to try myself, to keep the hours down, Right? From what I hear, to have the heads reworked could cost just under $1000.00.
 
Yeah. I suggest you buy the cheapest handheld camcorder you can find and use it as an uploading platform and capture device. Dont use your DVX for such dirty work. Just go get some 1ccd handycam that doesnt have to work.
 
PerroneFord said:
I was thinking more of archival library purposes. Yes, Hard Drives are cheap, but I've got nearly a thousand of them here. It would not be practical to swap them regularly.
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A thousand hard drives of video? How big is each drive? (My mind is boggling with the concept!)

Or do you mean you have nearly 1,000 tapes? That would require almost thirty 500G hard drives if my math is correct. A significant investment, but not impossible.

It really depends on how much of that footage you need regular access to and how much is only archival "just in case".

Question for you though. If you lost your machine to some malady (virus, fire, etc.) how hard or easy would it be for you to mount that hard drive on another machine?
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Trivial with a capital "T" (and I don't say that lightly). I'd have a choice of removing the drive from its hot-swap drawer and "hard installing" it into any computer, or getting another hot-swap frame and installing that into the new computer. Worst case, the manufacturer no longer makes the hot-swap drive drawers I'm using so I go with another manufacturer.

There is absolutely nothing on the drive that mechanically, electronically or logically (the data) ties it to any one computer. As my video storage requirements go up I'll be using the same technology my company is using in its server room to add storage capacity to my video editting system at home. I don't need ever second of footage I've ever shot online all at the same time.

For the times when I want to take footage from two or more different shoots that are on different removable drives I've got a smaller (80G) drive that I use for temporary storage installed in the computer; I could copy from one removable drive to this fixed drive then swap to another removable.

BTW, IT reports directly to me so I directed them to use this technology because I wanted my company to pay to try it before I committed my irreplaceable video to it. ;-)
 
I didn't say I had 1000 hard drives of VIDEO. I just said hard drives. I was thinking that a TV station MIGHT. I am not a video professional, I am a computer professional. However, we face simiar problems in trying to safeguard what we have on storage media.

I wasn't sure if you were meaning you were using hot-swappable drives or not. We do the same, but have gone from Dell, to HP, and had a brief relationship with Digital, and Intergraph. None of them could share drives, hence my question about mounting things elsewhere. We buy matching hardware statewide so should we have some issue at one geographic location, we can move stuff elsewhere.

We lost a server in one part of the state a couple of years ago. In trying to build a new one and restore from tape, the tape drive failed. We actually had to bring the disks to a new location and build a new server around them to get back to business. I was just thinking of a similar scenario for a TV station or another entity with a lot of stored media.
 
How much do you trust the DTE units? Mine arrived yesterday, and I used it today to shoot some test footage. I'll dump from it tomorrow.

I have a 2 hour shoot next week where I plan to use it backed up by tape. Not sure I'm comfortable betting on just that unit yet.
 
I just spent a while reading all the posts in this thread... Thanks for the advice on using a cheaper camera to upload miniDV tapes to computer! I never realized that the wear and tear on the camera heads was such a big issue.

It was nice to hear the term "U-Matic"... As a kid, I made a TV appearance, and I got a copy of it on U-Matic. I probably still have it someplace. If I'm not mistaken, I think it's 1in tape. (maybe 3/4in tape?) I know the cassette box is about the size of "War & Peace". LOL

Does anyone here know where I can post questions about "suggestions for buying a new computer optimized for capturing and rendering DV"?

Much thanks - It was a great read on technology, DV media and preservation of the stuff that we feel is worthy of saving forever.

Hey Bartender... Just leave the bottle and the keys to the front door... I may be here a while...
Matt
 
A pretty nice and "affordable" pro deck would be the Sony DSR-11 DVCAM deck http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=details&kw=SODSR11&is=REG&Q=&O=productlist&sku=212935
The downside is it can only record in DVCAM mode, but the upside is it can record in DVCAM mode ;)
*edit* Shame on me, it can record to DV as well. It's right there in the menu... *edit off*

For secure archiving I'd say some 30$ 124 minute DVCAM tape I'd trust more than a 3$ 60 minute MiniDV tape.
From a pro-view the DSR-11 is a little consumerish because it doesn't have XLR audio nor component video, doesn't have a super-video-out and doesn't have a display (you can see all info on screen though if you press "display" on the remote). However it is very useable even in a pro environment as a deck for capturing and recording to NLE's via firewire.
 
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FBAS, that deck will read and write in DV, not just DVCAM...

I wish I had $1500-2000 to spend on a deck, but for most people on this site it just isn't an option. What would really be nice is a no bells and whistles deck that just read miniDV tapes in the $400-500 range (firewire and composite video/audio only and play/pause/FF/Rew controls).
 
FBAS, that deck will read and write in DV, not just DVCAM...
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It really does? Shame on me, I never really tried because we are only using DVCAM for archiving at work. Thought it was only able to write DVCAM... of course I knew it reads DV, otherwise I wouldn't have recommended it :)


I wish I had $1500-2000 to spend on a deck, but for most people on this site it just isn't an option. What would really be nice is a no bells and whistles deck that just read miniDV tapes in the $400-500 range (firewire and composite video/audio only and play/pause/FF/Rew controls).
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I know what you mean - I don't even own a DVX (just happen to use them at work). I just thought as there was talk about 1500$ miniDV decks I'd rather mention you could just as well get a professional DVCAM deck for that price!
 
you can find svhs/mini dv combo decks for under a grand. I've had problems with them in the past, but mostly because many people who were using them used both wet and dry tapes. I'd say if you bought one new, and used the same tape brand like you should be doing anyway) then a combo deck would work for you.
 
1200 or less for DSR-11, and it's probably one of the best decks out there for the price. the one i have is even more reliable then the DSR-25 I use to have (which broke down once every 6 months).
sure a deck is expensive, but it's an investment. i would say it's one of the most under-rated pieces of hardware for your NLE.
 
Just as you don't want to go cheap on your tripod becuse it's holding your camera....

You don't want to go cheap on your deck either - those are you camera masters that you are putting in there! When you consider buying the cheapest deck you can find, take a moment to think of much you may loose if it decides to munch the tape. :eek: That beeing said, cheap camcorders do generally work just find for capturing on a budget, but they won't last as long.

Those JVC combo decks suck. I can't belive they are still making them (they just relased a new one the other day too..). If you've got a grand for one, then you have $1500 for a DSR-11

- Mikko
 
yeah, those JVC decks have given me nothing but problems...i use a Sony trv-22 camcorder as my deck since I'm a student and can't afford $1500 for a deck. Once I graduate and start working, though, it is definitely on my list of items...
 
I don't know the model number, but it is the miniDV/VHS one that usually runs around $800. I've had a lot of "break in cadence" problems along with read errors which were fixed once I captured on my handicam.
 
Has anyone had experience with the Quickstream DV? At a price range of $600.00 (1.5 hrs.) to $1'000.00 (6 hrs.), in conjunction with the idea of preserving one's tape heads, this type of technology appears to make tape technology obsolete.

Unless there is some inherent flaw in this harddrive technology, I can't even see the need for P2 cards for the HVX200.

I would be interested in people's opinions and experiences with this product.
 
The original thread question is valid. They are overpriced... very much overpriced. Lot's of things are overpriced.

Prices are dictated by the market.

I think they're expensive because not too long ago before NLE's were so commmon amongst the masses the majority of sales were driven by TV stations, educatational facilities, and generally professionals. There wasn't a large demand. These were specialized devices made for industrial use and therefore cost an arm and a leg.

With the boom in popularity of both NLE hardware and software in the past few years we'd think the prices would drop. But- if people will pay they (Sony et al) sure aren't going to drop the prices. And frankly, at this point there's no way they would lower the prices. If they developed a new VTR say a DSR-12 and marketed it for 500 bucks it would completely undercut all of their other models. Nobody would buy them anymore. All their models including the $5k+ models would have to be knocked down 50-70%. Furthermore, all the people who had payed big bucks for theirs would suddenly be irate that the prices dropped.

What it will take is simply market competition. JVC has their $800 machine which is both hated and loved depending on who you ask. Someone needs to come along and build a rock solid machine which sells for 500 bucks- and I promise it would become the standard within a year. Everyone and their brother who doesnt already own a VTR would snatch them up like candy. This would force the big companies to rethink their strategy and basically adapt to the NLE era. There's a niche just screaming to be filled.
Eventually professional video monitors will fall as well, especially since people are developing software solutions for monitoring.
 
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