NorBro
Major Contributor
lol...that's quite some world-class evaluation.
Here's one:
I think the ALEXA looks rather brown, or orange, or both.
Thanks Mad Max for reminding me.
Why are RED Cameras Industry Standard?
- Thread starter achieply
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lol...that's quite some world-class evaluation.
Here's one:
I think the ALEXA looks rather brown, or orange, or both.
Thanks Mad Max for reminding me.
I am always amazed how true the colors from the 5D MkIII are in ML. Frankly, don't need to do much grading at all to get what was there in the scene. There are moments when I don't even touch the image, and I am a freelance colorist who has worked with many cameras. The raw is 14bit and not even Arri is shooting that (12 bit usually). The thing is that the dynamic range with the 5D is only about 10.5 stops, and the stable output is of course limited to FullHD. But that camera still has a place in my cupboard and remains quite practical.
Eric Coughlin
Veteran
Yeah, obviously films can be color graded for different looks. The difference at this point is, there's plenty of natural and stylized Arri footage out there, while the Venice footage I keep seeing brown showing up. Maybe it means nothing, maybe it means something. Any camera can pull off a stylized look to skin-tones; only the best can pull off natural skin tones realistically, and I guess that's my point. I want to see more natural skin tones from the Venice before declaring it equal to an Arri in regards to skin tones.
How's that- straight from the Venice with no grading?
If that looks brown, maybe there's **** on your monitor.
Teddy_Dem
Well-known member
I'm not sure if any other shows are currently shooting on the Sony Venice, but the show Snowfall on FX Network switched to the Venice for season 3 which is currently running. The DP's discuss switching to the Venice and the lenses used in the video below as they had to match up to the previous seasons. Season 2 was shot on a Varicam, and season 1 as well I believe. Although I do see an Amira in one the BTS shots from season 1 in addition to the Varicam.
Snowfall | Inside Season 3: Snowfall’s Cinematic Nature
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym3AC7W0Su4
Snowfall | Season 3: First Look
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORIdZ8_ZhlI
Snowfall | Inside Season 2: Cinematography
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPAXPu95MQE
Snowfall | Season 2: First Look
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHtkocaTveI
Snowfall | Inside Season 1: Cinematography
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiVg5EptJdk
Snowfall | Season 1: First Look
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJGwKlpoIF0
Snowfall | Inside Season 3: Snowfall’s Cinematic Nature
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym3AC7W0Su4
Snowfall | Season 3: First Look
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORIdZ8_ZhlI
Snowfall | Inside Season 2: Cinematography
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPAXPu95MQE
Snowfall | Season 2: First Look
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHtkocaTveI
Snowfall | Inside Season 1: Cinematography
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiVg5EptJdk
Snowfall | Season 1: First Look
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJGwKlpoIF0
I think today the data is no longer a problem. I think the unpopularity of the F65 was that it never had any mojo. I still don't understand why Sony has left F65 buyers out to dry, when they give Venice color science in a consumer type of camera like the FS5. Can't they throw a bone to the people who spent a small fortune on their flagship F65 and release Venice color science for the F65 as well? If they have it on a $5K prosumer camera. No they can't. Because they are Sony! This is the biggest reason people don't go with Sony and go with Arri and Red. Arri beats Sony because they know what they are doing in cinema. They care for their customers and what they want. Sony don't know and don't care for their customers.
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I moved from a FS7 to an Alexa a while ago. So I obviously agree Arri produces great skins. But I think you are being a little unfair. How many movies have been shot on Arri and how many on Venice? Of course you will have more examples of great footage from Arri. But there is also very dreadful shot on Arri stuff out there. If all those had come before the great stuff we could also have made a premature judgement that the Alexa was bad. I think at this point the wise thing to do not to come across as biased and unfair is to wait.
I know you said your point is exactly wait. But you are coming across as an Arri biased defender with the way you are phrasing your posts. Arri looks great but so does F35 and now what I'm seeing from the Venice I'm liking as well. So far.
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Somehow this is the most F65 like Venice footage I have seen.
I thought they had unlocked 4K with Magic Lantern RAW.
G
Guest
Guest
They both come from Sony, so there is a kind of philosophy, or school of thought, that they have. Like Canon making Sumire... ...they still look like Canon.
The Venice just has some tweaked color as a base starting point, but otherwise retains Sony DNA.
G
Guest
Guest
Norbro, you know what you are saying, doesn’t make sense. Eric is going off a demo which is showing off the Venice skintone, and you throw Mad Max in there? Haha. You know the Chrome version of ‘Fury Road’ has the more realistic Arri colours!
Well, yeah. I know they are both Sony. But the point has been that so far the Venice looked much better than anything I ever saw from a F65 and F55. But this trailer, if you had told me it was F65 I would not have doubted.
IMO the only 2 cameras which don't look overly digital or like video are the Arris and the F35. The jury is still out on the Venice. We will see.
G
Guest
Guest
The Venice looks like high end video to me.
But as in the case of Alexa and F35, video can look great. Alexa and Genesis had the color profiles tweaked by film makers. Sony Venice looks like engineers seeing what film makers ask for and giving them what they think that is.
But as in the case of Alexa and F35, video can look great. Alexa and Genesis had the color profiles tweaked by film makers. Sony Venice looks like engineers seeing what film makers ask for and giving them what they think that is.
NorBro
Major Contributor
Nah. It makes perfect sense.
If he cannot engage in critical thinking then I will not either.
You always agree - and actually write "agreed" or something similar, lol - to anyone I challenge or challenges me in a discussion so I don't expect you to understand, but my only comment is that there is no demo he's going off of; it is a compilation of clips (two feature films that I imagine he hasn't seen yet) that he is forming an opinion from.
And that opinion - which is fine, he is entitled to one - is being made on 3 indoor Venice shots (I'm excluding the 4th shot for obvious reasons) vs. 1 outdoor ARRI shot and 1 indoor ARRI lighting skintone demo (literally, it's an optimized skintone demo created by ARRI itself).
It is what it is, but there are dozens of examples in which an ARRI - or any camera for that matter - may not look ideal in a certain instant (like a particular freeze frame from YouTube), but smart people understand that certain contributions from life may have created that result (like grading as you both mentioned).
I will also never understand why it's not understood that our brains are very complex and we all process colors slightly differently from each other.
NorBro
Major Contributor
Here's another Venice clip. It has 70 likes, 0 dislikes - with two comments favoring the color.
Maybe it's worth a look (captured through Zeiss Supreme Primes):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqOqDzznMgc
Maybe it's worth a look (captured through Zeiss Supreme Primes):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqOqDzznMgc
G
Guest
Guest
My post was making fun of people who attack arguments and ignore the larger picture. I was on your side, without having to agree with you.
NorBro
Major Contributor
You and Eric should start a comedy duo, maybe a cinematic double act, if you will.
Eric Coughlin
Veteran
I feel like a lot of the cameras tend to favor a color - with Canon it's orange, Panasonic is green, Red is red, Blackmagic is black, Arri is real, and Sony looks like crap.
Let me find another example of brown Venice footage...
There's some nice brown.
I thought Oblivion looked great on the F65. I'd read somewhere that Sony still considers the F65 their flagship camera; it is still for sale and costs a bit more than the Venice (though once you factor in licenses for the Venice they may even out more), even though the ergonomics will keep it from ever gaining popularity. I think the Venice looks good, better than the Varicam or Red, but it's only natural to judge a camera by what you've seen from it, so of course I'm going to judge off of the few samples currently available. And I have yet to see anything that makes me think, "Definitely better than Arri, Venice is my next camera." Maybe Venice will be my next camera; I'll probably buy another high end camera in around year or two, which would likely be the Alexa Mini LF, Alexa Mini 4K Super35, or Sony Venice if the Venice gains a lot of popularity. Venice certainly has some tech advantages like higher resolution and higher 16 bit depth, but specs are for fools if the specs don't result in actual better image quality, and for that, we'll have to wait and see, as well as see just how popular the camera will become.
The Alexa Mini is still smaller and 3.5 lbs lighter than a Venice, which does help for occasional configurations where you want a smaller and lighter camera. Most of the time I'm fine with the size and weight of my Amira, but I wouldn't mind having a smaller option for those times when a smaller option would be beneficial.
Let me find another example of brown Venice footage...
There's some nice brown.
I thought Oblivion looked great on the F65. I'd read somewhere that Sony still considers the F65 their flagship camera; it is still for sale and costs a bit more than the Venice (though once you factor in licenses for the Venice they may even out more), even though the ergonomics will keep it from ever gaining popularity. I think the Venice looks good, better than the Varicam or Red, but it's only natural to judge a camera by what you've seen from it, so of course I'm going to judge off of the few samples currently available. And I have yet to see anything that makes me think, "Definitely better than Arri, Venice is my next camera." Maybe Venice will be my next camera; I'll probably buy another high end camera in around year or two, which would likely be the Alexa Mini LF, Alexa Mini 4K Super35, or Sony Venice if the Venice gains a lot of popularity. Venice certainly has some tech advantages like higher resolution and higher 16 bit depth, but specs are for fools if the specs don't result in actual better image quality, and for that, we'll have to wait and see, as well as see just how popular the camera will become.
The Alexa Mini is still smaller and 3.5 lbs lighter than a Venice, which does help for occasional configurations where you want a smaller and lighter camera. Most of the time I'm fine with the size and weight of my Amira, but I wouldn't mind having a smaller option for those times when a smaller option would be beneficial.
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