Waiting 'til the last minute is usually a workable plan - I know it's the one I use! Far as the AF100 being sold by users, I guess I have two ones: One, they are def being sold in higher numbers then the FS100 (which I've only seen one of so far), but the AF100's been out for about 6 months longer. Two, the AF100 certainly isn't going for a "bargain" price - it seems to be retaining it's value, maybe going for (on average) of 85% of it's retail value.
Why are folks selling their AF100s?
- Thread starter Grug
- Start date
Ed Kishel
Veteran
if your'e a DSLR shooter that loves that form-factor and needs more control / better audio options, then the FS100 is probably your camera. If you bought an AF100 looking for a 5DmkII with XLR inputs- then yes it will probably end up for sale shortly afterwards.
The image that my camera gives will be much more a reflection on my skills than on its abilities.
BTW- great grabs PaPa
The image that my camera gives will be much more a reflection on my skills than on its abilities.
BTW- great grabs PaPa
Last edited:
aguia
Active member
There is a familiar pattern in this thread that goes like this: people who don't own/use an AF100 speculating on why someone would sell one, people that own/use an AF100 scratching their heads, guffawing. Why does anyone sell anything? Generally they want to use the money for something else. The logic-break is assuming that the reason for selling is based on some performance criteria and that the seller might be remotely qualified to assess those performance qualities.
This dead horse is well beaten.
This dead horse is well beaten.
ZazaCast
Major Contributor
Post of the week! Finally...someone gets it (and it's not rocket surgery). Very well said aguia.
I often wonder why people have garage sales...I mean... I use my garage everyday, don't you?
:happy:
Perhaps... although some sellers specifically say they're "upgrading" to another camera. Their words, not mine. And to disparage every single owner of the AF100 who's selling the camera as not "remotely qualified" might be painting with too broad a brush.
And the ability to resell a piece of equipment - particularly one as relatively new as the AF100 - is a factor in buying said piece of equipment in the first place.
In other words, I think the question was asked - and answered - in a legitimate way.
mule ferguson
Well-known member
This dead horse is well beaten.
Yes, Yes, Yes,
Hey aguia. Love you man. thank you. Domo Arigato
Like the old Bud Commercial. "Let It Go Louie"
This dead mule has ben rode to hard!
HeHaw
Mule Ferguson
Yes, Yes, Yes,
Hey aguia. Love you man. thank you. Domo Arigato
Like the old Bud Commercial. "Let It Go Louie"
This dead mule has ben rode to hard!
HeHaw
Mule Ferguson
bgundu
Veteran
Actually there is no perfect camera, and never will be. Find out whats more important to you and make your decision. Coming from an HVX with a 35mm adapter, the Af100 met my DOF needs and improved image quality. It was a no brainer for me as I was also able to transfer all my Nikon glass to the Af100 too.
heavyG
Underwater Giraffe Member
Perfect camera for what? I own 4 different perfect cameras… Perfect for the job they were designed for. When those aren't the perfect camera for a job; I head over to Panavision / P.S. / SIM / or Claremont to rent the perfect camera that will give the desired results.
Thinking that one camera will fill all your needs just leads to heartache, poor results, and dissatisfied clients.
Shooter
Veteran
Your point seemd to be the failure of Panasonic to produce a "perfect camera" and you would make do with it ...despite it being imperfect.
Honestly, I think it's simple economics. The AF100 lies in that perfect capitalization space where you
can fit one out on a typical credit card limit .. do your project .. get paid .. and sell it .. and still come
out ahead.
There's an equal amount of churn in the 5dMkII space as well ...
Once you get up the food-chain a little bit, you have to hold the inventory
for multiple projects to get it to work out.
Nothing against the AF100 .. it's a great unit .. but it's in the < 10k churn space.
jeff
ps: we're holding ours.
can fit one out on a typical credit card limit .. do your project .. get paid .. and sell it .. and still come
out ahead.
There's an equal amount of churn in the 5dMkII space as well ...
Once you get up the food-chain a little bit, you have to hold the inventory
for multiple projects to get it to work out.
Nothing against the AF100 .. it's a great unit .. but it's in the < 10k churn space.
jeff
ps: we're holding ours.
Sorry - I assumed that the absurdity of that statement was obvious.
Show me the best camera available today and I will find a way to shoot bad footage with it. I will find something that it doesn't do that seems so obvious it shouldn't need to be mentioned. I will show you charts that highlight it's shortcomings or Zacuto shootouts that prove it is a massive disappointment. It's an easy thing to do, especially if one isn't building on past experience: There's all kinds of talk about digital cameras being incredible these days, and most of it comes from people who've shot video (or Super 8, or 16mm) and consider the technology a huge step forward (which it is). It's very easy to read those kinds of glowing reviews as describing "perfect" cameras, at which point any time someone points out a downside or an imperfection it seems deflating. The presence of any list of cons makes the camera seem lesser.
I can understand people being disappointed when they psych themselves up for a big-ish purchase and then it turns out not to be "perfect" - it's one of the key factors in buyer's remorse and it happens all the time.
But I like my camera a lot. It lets me do things I never could before.
groveChuck
U-matic Member
Man, keep this up and Panasonic's lawyers will be compeled to write a "This is not a perfect camera" disclaimer in the manual.
You know, like a package of peanuts that says "Warning- may contain peanuts..."
"Warning: this is not a perfect camera. Use at your own risk to your ego and set of skills.
This camera will not produce perfect images and could be seriously damaging to your health, wealth and career..."
You know, like a package of peanuts that says "Warning- may contain peanuts..."
"Warning: this is not a perfect camera. Use at your own risk to your ego and set of skills.
This camera will not produce perfect images and could be seriously damaging to your health, wealth and career..."
David G. Smith
Steak Knife Member
I think that if there is a subset of users who may be frustrated with the AF100 (or Sony FS100) it is not the folks that have been using the HD-DSLRs, but are those that came up through the "Pro-sumer" video camera ranks. A lot of folks want a HD video camera with a large sensor which has an integral fast, wide AND long motorized zoom lens, with the handy-cam form factor and user friendly features of small sensor SD and HD video cameras like the DVX-100, the HVX-200 and the HMC-150. Of course they also want it for a $4500.00 price tag, or less.
The flexibility and creative choices that the AF100 offers can be a bit daunting to folks used to cameras that had auto everything modes that produced acceptable (to them at least) footage. There are also a large number of folks, like events videographers, where the auto modes are necessary for them, and where a camera like the AF100 just may not be the best choice.
Of course, the camera companies are going to get around to making a camera that meets the above parameters, but of course, they to will be derided on interweb forums as not being perfect cameras. Whatcha gonna do?!
The flexibility and creative choices that the AF100 offers can be a bit daunting to folks used to cameras that had auto everything modes that produced acceptable (to them at least) footage. There are also a large number of folks, like events videographers, where the auto modes are necessary for them, and where a camera like the AF100 just may not be the best choice.
Of course, the camera companies are going to get around to making a camera that meets the above parameters, but of course, they to will be derided on interweb forums as not being perfect cameras. Whatcha gonna do?!
Rick Burnett
Section Moderator
I owned both the AF100 and FS100, and I sold my AF100. After spending a lot of time talking with Barry about it, I really think for a lot of people it depends on what camera you came from that you are most comfortable with. Sure, not everyone, but I loved shooting on my 7D and I loved the form factor. I just hated the moire/aliasing, rolling shutter, temp issues and no XLR for at least one mic. If Canon fixed all those issues, I'd be using whatever camera that was in a heartbeat, but of course, they haven't.
It was really hard selling the AF100, I actually wanted to keep both. They are both offer a lot of pluses and minuses that are hard to quantify for anyone. I really cannot pick an overall winner. You do not know how much I miss the built in ND filters, or the waveform monitor. Or, how much I love the focus zoom or the size of the FS100, or even more important, the battery life.
Anyone looking at either of these cameras, you are really going to need to get a chance to play with both of them and see what it is that is important to you. The quality difference in the image, honestly, is not that huge of a difference. Sure, I think the FS100 handles noise and sharpness better, but not to the point that it is worlds different. It is not. Same thing with highlight handling, they both can have issues, and I see no clear winner.
I think more AF100 are on the market because the camera has been out longer. Some people are moving away from the AF100 and back to a small sensor camera. I think if the FS100 had been on the market as long, we'd see possibly the same number of them. Lots of people jump on the bandwagon, and then realize, 'large sensor' might not be what they need. I've seen many people have that realization. They *want* the option of large sensor, but they don't have the lenses, or support gear, and so that $5k they have invested isn't worth it to them.
I get this question a lot because I had both, and people really want me to tell them which is better. I can't say the AF100 or the FS100. I can listen to what is important to you and try and help decide, but that's it.
However, that said, like I said earlier, and as Barry has seen in the trends of many people who speak about these cameras; if you like a traditional video camera, like the HVX200, you are probably going to really like the AF100 for all the additional feature it has. If you like DSLR shooting, you are probably going to like the FS100. HOWEVER, there are many many features in the FS100 that are nothing like a DSLR. But, not having ND is definitely one of them!
Nevertheless, again, TRY to get your hands on both cameras. Find people in your area willing to let you see them. We are organizing a get together in my area with an AF100, FS100 (mine) and an F3 so people can get some hands on. I have no stake in any of the camera manufacturers so I just want to help people get what feels the most right to them.
It was really hard selling the AF100, I actually wanted to keep both. They are both offer a lot of pluses and minuses that are hard to quantify for anyone. I really cannot pick an overall winner. You do not know how much I miss the built in ND filters, or the waveform monitor. Or, how much I love the focus zoom or the size of the FS100, or even more important, the battery life.
Anyone looking at either of these cameras, you are really going to need to get a chance to play with both of them and see what it is that is important to you. The quality difference in the image, honestly, is not that huge of a difference. Sure, I think the FS100 handles noise and sharpness better, but not to the point that it is worlds different. It is not. Same thing with highlight handling, they both can have issues, and I see no clear winner.
I think more AF100 are on the market because the camera has been out longer. Some people are moving away from the AF100 and back to a small sensor camera. I think if the FS100 had been on the market as long, we'd see possibly the same number of them. Lots of people jump on the bandwagon, and then realize, 'large sensor' might not be what they need. I've seen many people have that realization. They *want* the option of large sensor, but they don't have the lenses, or support gear, and so that $5k they have invested isn't worth it to them.
I get this question a lot because I had both, and people really want me to tell them which is better. I can't say the AF100 or the FS100. I can listen to what is important to you and try and help decide, but that's it.
However, that said, like I said earlier, and as Barry has seen in the trends of many people who speak about these cameras; if you like a traditional video camera, like the HVX200, you are probably going to really like the AF100 for all the additional feature it has. If you like DSLR shooting, you are probably going to like the FS100. HOWEVER, there are many many features in the FS100 that are nothing like a DSLR. But, not having ND is definitely one of them!
Nevertheless, again, TRY to get your hands on both cameras. Find people in your area willing to let you see them. We are organizing a get together in my area with an AF100, FS100 (mine) and an F3 so people can get some hands on. I have no stake in any of the camera manufacturers so I just want to help people get what feels the most right to them.
Bob Fagan
Well-known member
Okay, I’m no filmmaker...corporate video mainly, but I dabble in the pretty shots every now and then. I have traveled up the Panasonic “Pro-sumer” line...(moving from Sony)...from the DVX100 to the HVX200 and now to the AF100. I have also a couple of Canon DSLR’s (D7) in the bag and have used them extensively for b-roll footage.
Here’s my viewpoint. DVX100 & HVX200...never, ever failed me. Never. Rock solid. (HVX) P2 technology worked and even those times I had a “bad clip” because a battery got knocked out, the repair function always brought it back. Worked flawlessly in hot (104) to cold weather (-20). Footage, when lit right, was good and sometimes great, but clients were always pleased because I always got the shot without technical problems.
I may not be the greatest shooter, but I always delivered the message they wanted on time and reliably.
So I’m somewhat of an ideal candidate for the AF100. I have a long history with Panasonic prosumer level cameras and have made a good living from them. I am turning to DSLRs to give me some better DOFs and more flexibility with both interchangeable lenses and a smaller form factor. But they have their limitations and the aliasing drives me crazy. I wanted something that had both...not a perfect camera, but something that brought DSLR DOF and multiple lenses to a video camera with appropriate video characteristics (zebras, XLRs, user settings, etc).
So I’m sold...I can deal with the non-zoom factor. I can live with that. I think. I still have an HVX200 for those events/projects that require smooth zooms. (cinema zoom lenses are not in the budget...this year).
I read the reviews, the forums, I have a history so I trust Panasonic, so I finally jump in...sell one of my HVX200s and purchase the AF100 last month. But, believe it or not, I’m not a Panny fan boy, so when some of the features from the HVX did not make it to the AF100, I started to second guess myself. Here’s a list of the things that bothered me day to day, and I kind of knew going in that some of them were not there, but it didn’t hit me until I saw how working with them day to day was...
No digital focus magnifier...yes I do the BW viewfinder and red EVF, but still why lose something so useful? This is probably the biggest feature omission. I need this and I don’t want to spend a bunch of money for a specialized viewfinder/monitor when I had it already on the old HVX200. But it looks like I’m going to have to spend that money. The one time I can’t find focus will be the time I tell my client I was actually going for that soft dreamy look...
On/Off switch needs tiny sharp fingernails to turn on and off....and why move it from the “record” on button? Why change that setup that they’ve had from the DVX to something more inaccessible? It’s something I cannot turn on and off by feel now, nor is the record function as accessible. But maybe I’ll learn.
No Firewire output. Okay...this is old time technology, and I know there are other ways to get the signal out that are better, but there are some things I use (Boinx software) that work better with Firewire. I guess it’s a cost thing, and I can live with that and probably should have known going in....that’s why I kept the other HVX.
Scene files are a pain to access....I feel like I’ve gone backwards to a consumer level camera with their hidden menu selections. The HVX & DVX analog scene file selectors were just so usable. You can watch the changes of the scene file settings as you move the selectors. All that is gone now with the AF100.
One SD card can only record one video format? P2s could do any video setting format (although you couldn’t play them back unless you were set for that format.) So now I need a few SD cards for each shoot so I can shoot different VFR if need be (or 1080 or 720). I have had 2 SD cards go bad on me (okay, they were Transcends, and subject to recall, but if it wasn’t for the Ninja I was using at the same time, it could have gone ugly. I never had that problem with P2s which have been used constantly since 2006...well the 4 gigers at least). I use Panasonic Golds now and so far they seem to be solid. I just now have a nagging feeling in the back of my head that these SD cards are not reliable and I’m now thinking anything critical, (which is most jobs) I’ll need a back up plan.
So trust in reliability will have to be gained once I get a few bunch of hours shooting with the Panasonic SD cards. Right now I don’t know what will happen when I shoot in hot humid weather, or freezing weather. But I will certainly test it once I have those conditions (and it’s not Fall weather). I would suggest Panasonic sell their SD cards as part of the kit if they back them up. I am all for paying premium for reliability.
And finally the “no audio” when in VFR mode. Well I’m use to that with the HVX, but I found it a nice bonus with the Canon D7. The HVX200 at least shows NO levels when in VFR mode and you don’t hear anything through headphones. While in the AF100, there is the little red icon saying “NO AUDIO REC” with the slash mark on it in the LED, it still is a step backwards. Canon DSLRs can do it at 720p60 so I’m not sure what the technical problem is that Panasonic can’t offer the same feature. It’s nice to have the audio even when you are doing VFR. Even if it’s for reference.
Okay...so that’s most of the bad stuff...
Good stuff....
DOF...even with the slow Lumix “kit” 14-140 lens, it’s so much better than the HVX. Drop a canon 1.8 50mm on it and it looks pretty damn cool. (Not the camera...it’s not pretty but it has a working form factor). I do have to remember to always pack a Canon camera with me when working with the Canon lenses in case I need to change aperture. Some manual aperture primes are in the wish list right now.
Chromatic aberation...there’s still some, but nothing like the stuff I saw when shooting fine detail against a highlighted background on the HVX. AF100 gives better detail overall.
The image is pretty damn nice.
VFR in 1080 mode.
I can change lenses! Therefore I can rent lenses for special situations. Like when I’m going to a shoot in Florence, Italy (this November) and need a real wide angle for some interiors and maybe a tilt shift for the buildings!
Sound is same as HVX200...still have that -65db stuff, but it’s workable. Can always use a mixer/recorder when the audiophiles require it.
HDMI out...I couldn’t wait for the Samurai...went with a Ninja and I find it usable in stable situations and it’s my go-to format on all locked down shoots and it’s nice that you have a shoot going to two different medias..makes me feel better.
The HDMI is at least better than the firewire hard drive solutions we use to use on the DVX100s. Workflow from the Ninja is a dream. Will probably upgrade to the Samurai eventually, but just for the connectors since TC is not critical for most of my work.
The AF100 works in my cheap EW underwater casing!
So do I regret buying the AF100? As long as I have the HVX200 for those occasions I need it and the Canon D7s, I think it is the beginning of a long friendship. I’m hoping the AF200 will rectify some of the problems, but I think I will get enough and more importantly KEEP enough business to justify getting it. As always, just need to practice, practice, practice.
Thanks for listening...I needed to get this out. It’s kind of liberating.
Here’s my viewpoint. DVX100 & HVX200...never, ever failed me. Never. Rock solid. (HVX) P2 technology worked and even those times I had a “bad clip” because a battery got knocked out, the repair function always brought it back. Worked flawlessly in hot (104) to cold weather (-20). Footage, when lit right, was good and sometimes great, but clients were always pleased because I always got the shot without technical problems.
I may not be the greatest shooter, but I always delivered the message they wanted on time and reliably.
So I’m somewhat of an ideal candidate for the AF100. I have a long history with Panasonic prosumer level cameras and have made a good living from them. I am turning to DSLRs to give me some better DOFs and more flexibility with both interchangeable lenses and a smaller form factor. But they have their limitations and the aliasing drives me crazy. I wanted something that had both...not a perfect camera, but something that brought DSLR DOF and multiple lenses to a video camera with appropriate video characteristics (zebras, XLRs, user settings, etc).
So I’m sold...I can deal with the non-zoom factor. I can live with that. I think. I still have an HVX200 for those events/projects that require smooth zooms. (cinema zoom lenses are not in the budget...this year).
I read the reviews, the forums, I have a history so I trust Panasonic, so I finally jump in...sell one of my HVX200s and purchase the AF100 last month. But, believe it or not, I’m not a Panny fan boy, so when some of the features from the HVX did not make it to the AF100, I started to second guess myself. Here’s a list of the things that bothered me day to day, and I kind of knew going in that some of them were not there, but it didn’t hit me until I saw how working with them day to day was...
No digital focus magnifier...yes I do the BW viewfinder and red EVF, but still why lose something so useful? This is probably the biggest feature omission. I need this and I don’t want to spend a bunch of money for a specialized viewfinder/monitor when I had it already on the old HVX200. But it looks like I’m going to have to spend that money. The one time I can’t find focus will be the time I tell my client I was actually going for that soft dreamy look...
On/Off switch needs tiny sharp fingernails to turn on and off....and why move it from the “record” on button? Why change that setup that they’ve had from the DVX to something more inaccessible? It’s something I cannot turn on and off by feel now, nor is the record function as accessible. But maybe I’ll learn.
No Firewire output. Okay...this is old time technology, and I know there are other ways to get the signal out that are better, but there are some things I use (Boinx software) that work better with Firewire. I guess it’s a cost thing, and I can live with that and probably should have known going in....that’s why I kept the other HVX.
Scene files are a pain to access....I feel like I’ve gone backwards to a consumer level camera with their hidden menu selections. The HVX & DVX analog scene file selectors were just so usable. You can watch the changes of the scene file settings as you move the selectors. All that is gone now with the AF100.
One SD card can only record one video format? P2s could do any video setting format (although you couldn’t play them back unless you were set for that format.) So now I need a few SD cards for each shoot so I can shoot different VFR if need be (or 1080 or 720). I have had 2 SD cards go bad on me (okay, they were Transcends, and subject to recall, but if it wasn’t for the Ninja I was using at the same time, it could have gone ugly. I never had that problem with P2s which have been used constantly since 2006...well the 4 gigers at least). I use Panasonic Golds now and so far they seem to be solid. I just now have a nagging feeling in the back of my head that these SD cards are not reliable and I’m now thinking anything critical, (which is most jobs) I’ll need a back up plan.
So trust in reliability will have to be gained once I get a few bunch of hours shooting with the Panasonic SD cards. Right now I don’t know what will happen when I shoot in hot humid weather, or freezing weather. But I will certainly test it once I have those conditions (and it’s not Fall weather). I would suggest Panasonic sell their SD cards as part of the kit if they back them up. I am all for paying premium for reliability.
And finally the “no audio” when in VFR mode. Well I’m use to that with the HVX, but I found it a nice bonus with the Canon D7. The HVX200 at least shows NO levels when in VFR mode and you don’t hear anything through headphones. While in the AF100, there is the little red icon saying “NO AUDIO REC” with the slash mark on it in the LED, it still is a step backwards. Canon DSLRs can do it at 720p60 so I’m not sure what the technical problem is that Panasonic can’t offer the same feature. It’s nice to have the audio even when you are doing VFR. Even if it’s for reference.
Okay...so that’s most of the bad stuff...
Good stuff....
DOF...even with the slow Lumix “kit” 14-140 lens, it’s so much better than the HVX. Drop a canon 1.8 50mm on it and it looks pretty damn cool. (Not the camera...it’s not pretty but it has a working form factor). I do have to remember to always pack a Canon camera with me when working with the Canon lenses in case I need to change aperture. Some manual aperture primes are in the wish list right now.
Chromatic aberation...there’s still some, but nothing like the stuff I saw when shooting fine detail against a highlighted background on the HVX. AF100 gives better detail overall.
The image is pretty damn nice.
VFR in 1080 mode.
I can change lenses! Therefore I can rent lenses for special situations. Like when I’m going to a shoot in Florence, Italy (this November) and need a real wide angle for some interiors and maybe a tilt shift for the buildings!
Sound is same as HVX200...still have that -65db stuff, but it’s workable. Can always use a mixer/recorder when the audiophiles require it.
HDMI out...I couldn’t wait for the Samurai...went with a Ninja and I find it usable in stable situations and it’s my go-to format on all locked down shoots and it’s nice that you have a shoot going to two different medias..makes me feel better.
The HDMI is at least better than the firewire hard drive solutions we use to use on the DVX100s. Workflow from the Ninja is a dream. Will probably upgrade to the Samurai eventually, but just for the connectors since TC is not critical for most of my work.
The AF100 works in my cheap EW underwater casing!
So do I regret buying the AF100? As long as I have the HVX200 for those occasions I need it and the Canon D7s, I think it is the beginning of a long friendship. I’m hoping the AF200 will rectify some of the problems, but I think I will get enough and more importantly KEEP enough business to justify getting it. As always, just need to practice, practice, practice.
Thanks for listening...I needed to get this out. It’s kind of liberating.
