Why 4K Might Not Be the Best Way to Attract Consumers

That's the problem I have with people thinking that "4K" is going to be a selling point... I've said it before, and others are touching on it here, but what drives consumers is CONVENIENCE, not "quality". Consumers didn't migrate in droves to highly-compressed MP3's for quality's sake! They went to MP3's so they could 1) have all their music with them whenever they wanted, 2) swap and/or steal songs, 3) get away from physical media entirely. MP3's are definitely not as high-quality as the CD's they are ripped from; it's definitely a case of getting lower quality but more convenience -- and it was accepted in a landslide.

Same thing with DVD over VHS -- did anyone really buy DVD for the better picture quality? I'd argue, in general, the public did not. After all, if they were so concerned about picture quality, why didn't they buy into LaserDisc? They bought DVDs for a few reasons, primarily -- NO MORE TAPE. No more rewinding, no more "be kind, rewind", no more VCR eating the tape. Improved quality was a secondary consideration, if a consideration at all for the masses, because it's pretty unlikely that the cheapo TV sets people were watching it on would show much, if any, quality improvement for DVD over VHS. Now, don't get me wrong, DVD is a big step up in quality over VHS, but I still believe that had little to do with market acceptance.

Which brings us to Blu-ray -- a big step up in quality, and a big step down in convenience. Blu-rays are a PITA. They take forever to boot, and they glitch *all the time*. It's rare that I can get through a Netflix without having to skip or jump over some section that just glitches, and that's on two different Blu-ray players. Blu-ray players have to have an internet connection and you have to constantly be upgrading the firmware (although some do this invisibly). Is it worth it? The image is sharper, yes, but the discs cost more and the players are more hassle, so ... by and large, the public said "pass". To this day, consumers still spend way more on DVD discs than on blu-rays. For the week ended Oct 26, 2013, consumers spent $78.18 million on DVD discs, but bought only $29.87 million of Blu-ray discs. DVD still accounts for nearly 3/4 of the market for disc-based video.

Blu-ray added quality, but didn't bring anything else (of any practical value) to the party, and so it has floundered.

So the question I keep asking is: what will 4K bring to the table? How will it be a step up in convenience? Because if it's just about quality, then it can look forward to a tedious, slow, painful rollout, or even a flop, like the high-quality Super Audio CD format, which flopped utterly.
 
Barry, spittin' the troof!

And knowing all of that, who wants to buy a 4k camera :) I know I do not think they are going to make a big sell in the near term. The HDTV worked for most people because they were in many cases selling a CRT they had for 10-20 years. Many have recently purchased HDTVs so new 4k TVs will be too early for an upgrade. I don't think it will be a 3D level of disappointment because there is a future, but it is way too early for the TVs to sell in any quantity.
 
That's the problem I have with people thinking that "4K" is going to be a selling point... I've said it before, and others are touching on it here, but what drives consumers is CONVENIENCE, not "quality". Consumers didn't migrate in droves to highly-compressed MP3's for quality's sake! They went to MP3's so they could 1) have all their music with them whenever they wanted, 2) swap and/or steal songs, 3) get away from physical media entirely. MP3's are definitely not as high-quality as the CD's they are ripped from; it's definitely a case of getting lower quality but more convenience -- and it was accepted in a landslide.

Same thing with DVD over VHS -- did anyone really buy DVD for the better picture quality? I'd argue, in general, the public did not. After all, if they were so concerned about picture quality, why didn't they buy into LaserDisc? They bought DVDs for a few reasons, primarily -- NO MORE TAPE. No more rewinding, no more "be kind, rewind", no more VCR eating the tape. Improved quality was a secondary consideration, if a consideration at all for the masses, because it's pretty unlikely that the cheapo TV sets people were watching it on would show much, if any, quality improvement for DVD over VHS. Now, don't get me wrong, DVD is a big step up in quality over VHS, but I still believe that had little to do with market acceptance.

Which brings us to Blu-ray -- a big step up in quality, and a big step down in convenience. Blu-rays are a PITA. They take forever to boot, and they glitch *all the time*. It's rare that I can get through a Netflix without having to skip or jump over some section that just glitches, and that's on two different Blu-ray players. Blu-ray players have to have an internet connection and you have to constantly be upgrading the firmware (although some do this invisibly). Is it worth it? The image is sharper, yes, but the discs cost more and the players are more hassle, so ... by and large, the public said "pass". To this day, consumers still spend way more on DVD discs than on blu-rays. For the week ended Oct 26, 2013, consumers spent $78.18 million on DVD discs, but bought only $29.87 million of Blu-ray discs. DVD still accounts for nearly 3/4 of the market for disc-based video.

Blu-ray added quality, but didn't bring anything else (of any practical value) to the party, and so it has floundered.

So the question I keep asking is: what will 4K bring to the table? How will it be a step up in convenience? Because if it's just about quality, then it can look forward to a tedious, slow, painful rollout, or even a flop, like the high-quality Super Audio CD format, which flopped utterly.

I, for one, as a cinephile have no plans to replace the vast majority of my DVDs with Blu-rays. Some, yes. Most, no. 4K display? It's not even on my radar.
 
I'm still blown away with the quality of DVD's on an HD display, hard to imagine I will ever care for something with 8 times the resolution.
 
Sure guys keep telling yourself nothings going to change in an industry that is going through significant change because of disruptive tech.

Seriously, whilst I agree with some points like "high resolution broadcast" many here are sounding like technophobes trying to justify old gear or worse still prejudices.

Embrace change its coming wether you like it or not. It mightn't be 4k deliverables but it sure will be in acquisition greater than SD/HD.
 
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Which brings us to Blu-ray -- a big step up in quality, and a big step down in convenience. Blu-rays are a PITA. They take forever to boot, and they glitch *all the time*. It's rare that I can get through a Netflix without having to skip or jump over some section that just glitches, and that's on two different Blu-ray players. Blu-ray players have to have an internet connection and you have to constantly be upgrading the firmware (although some do this invisibly). Is it worth it? The image is sharper, yes, but the discs cost more and the players are more hassle, so ... by and large, the public said "pass". To this day, consumers still spend way more on DVD discs than on blu-rays. For the week ended Oct 26, 2013, consumers spent $78.18 million on DVD discs, but bought only $29.87 million of Blu-ray discs. DVD still accounts for nearly 3/4 of the market for disc-based video.

Blu-ray added quality, but didn't bring anything else (of any practical value) to the party, and so it has floundered.

BluRay had a botched launch from day one. First there was the format war between HD DVD and BluRay and then there was the license fee fiasco that kept everyone other than the major studios from releasing on BluRay. It still costs $1500 just in license fees before you can even manufacture a single disc, and that's a fraction of what it was a few years ago. This is a big part of why there are fewer titles on BluRay and consequently fewer total BluRay sales. Authoring BluRay for replication is also more complicated than DVD, so fewer small producers are willing or able to do it. The media landscape has changed with Internet video too, so BluRay not being as big a deal as DVD in its heyday has little to do with consumers preference for resolution.
 
Sure guys keep telling yourself nothings going to change in an industry that is going through significant change because of disruptive tech.

Seriously, whilst I agree with some points like "high resolution broadcast" many here are sounding like technophobes trying to justify old gear or worse still prejudices.

Embrace change its coming wether you like it or not. It mightn't be 4k deliverables but it sure will be in acquisition greater than SD/HD.

This site was built on embracing change and looking forward. That doesn't mean newer is always better, and I don't see anyone arguing against 4K acquisition. We have been witness to MANY false starts around here. Some things fizzle, and some things don't always make sense to migrate to.
 
BluRay had a botched launch from day one. First there was the format war between HD DVD and BluRay and then there was the license fee fiasco that kept everyone other than the major studios from releasing on BluRay. It still costs $1500 just in license fees before you can even manufacture a single disc, and that's a fraction of what it was a few years ago. This is a big part of why there are fewer titles on BluRay and consequently fewer total BluRay sales. Authoring BluRay for replication is also more complicated than DVD, so fewer small producers are willing or able to do it. The media landscape has changed with Internet video too, so BluRay not being as big a deal as DVD in its heyday has little to do with consumers preference for resolution.

Indeed; the license fee is why we skipped Blu-ray release altogether.
 
IMO they are trying to work out an excuse to work on 1, not "both".

Mobile phones haven't got better, they haven't got smaller. They have got smaller and better to the point that people don't want them smaller because they would be to hard to use.
I lived with the same TV from 1989 till 2000, and when I did finally upgrade, I got a 100hz CRT, not a 60. It wasn't until then that i got a DVD player also. What was the point, I couldn't record on it like i could a video tape, and i wouldn't have got sound much better till i had the new tv!
I upgraded my crt to a LCD back at the end of 08 (i think). I only did that because I had insurance money from a fire in another part of the house. I had wanted to get something a bigger and better for ages. But i didn't like how i could see the little globes on the plasma tv's and new that if 1 blew I would spot it and never be able to stop looking at it (not to mention being super paranoid about burn in).
With the LCD i thought the motion blur was terrible so i didn't want 1 of those either! I held off an upgrade until the Boxing Day sales where i got a 200hz LCD. At with time I got my first BluRay player, What was the point of getting 1 sooner, I couldn't record on it like i could a DVD-HDD, and the res on my tv was only 4/3 720x576 (Aus).
But now that I have a BluRay, If i wanted to buy a movie, why get a DVD? I'm also considering getting a PC BD burner for backup now that you can get the disks for $1 each.
So I wont be going out and getting a new 4k, just like i didn't get a new LED LCD, I just didn't think the improvement was worth it!

What % of the people have replaced their HMC150 with the AC160/130 or their HVX200/HPX170 with the HPX-250 (hell, look how many people are still using the DVX-100).
I personalty am making do with the 200hz LCD for now because there is as good as no content for the 4k so I cant make a realistic comparison, but neither do i want to upgrade to even OLED and stay with only the same 1920x1080 res when more content, even tv stations are going 4k. I don't think that 4k is just going to be a passing fad like 3D is for the second time around!

I was in the Home Theater section of a store the other day, and even thought it was footage and graphics made specially for the 4k demo, it had so much depth perseption that needing to have on glasses for the other 3D tv's was just stupid!
So my recommendation would just to be patient
 
65% of purchasing decisions within a household are made by women. If my wife is any indication, she would like to buy an 80" flatscreen, but she doesn't give a crap about 4K.
 
65% of purchasing decisions within a household are made by women. If my wife is any indication, she would like to buy an 80" flatscreen, but she doesn't give a crap about 4K.
So is it actually to watch. Or just look good sitting in the house not switched on :grin:
 
Not in my experience. What drives the average consumer is convenience. Convenience is first, cost is second. If they think about quality at all, it's way off down the line somewhere.

I agree. I was speaking more to the specific topic at hand of buying a TV rather than in generalities. Why do so many people buy 'TrueHD' sets when a 720p set would look just as good in an average living room view by an average consumer? Why do people crank it up to 240Hz? Because the commercial/ad/sales person says more is better. I guess this could fall under 'value' (they are getting more quality for their dollar) which is associated with cost.

In this instance I don't think convenience plays a huge roll because there won't be an HD/4K format war anymore than there was a SD/HD format war. I think the transition to 4K will be very convenient compared to other things. No special glasses to buy. No analog to digital mess. No stumbling block going from SD 4x3 to HD 16x9, 720/1080, interlaced/progressive, etc.,. Sony, Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, YouTube, etc., will just start streaming 4K. It'll be a totally invisible process to the end user. There's a chance Sony will roll out 4K Blu-ray but that's dicey and it will probably end up being a pricier niche product that doesn't really crack into the mass market. Getting people to buy a new 4K TV so they can watch 4K content that's already available from their favorite streaming service is a much lower barrier of entry than buying a new 4K TV, 4K Blu-ray player and 4K versions of movies you've already bought on Blu-ray (and probably DVD... and possibly even VHS before that).


Well, that's the point; if people bought on "quality they presume is there," then there would have been demand. Instead, people didn't see too much of an advantage over what they already had.

I'm talking further along in the change over process. Ex. fast forward to 2019, 4K is on the cusp of hitting the mainstream tipping point and Average Consumer is at Best Buy shopping for a new living room TV. It'll be in use for the next 5-10 years and they can get a 1080p TV or go 4K for a few hundred dollars more. Quality wise they won't be able to tell a lick of difference between the two but they have been hearing a lot about this new 4K thing, they don't want to 'have to' buy a new TV again in a few years when 4K is the norm and the guys will be so jealous when they come over to watch the playoffs. So the 4K set gets load into their V8 SUV/truck that's never seen a dirt road nor hauled anything and off they go (but not before they buy an air-tight, 24-carat gold Monster HDMI cable). ;)
 
the opinion of Dolby is totally biased since there are the only manufacturer to propose a screen based on better pixel (more brightness).
So basicaly they are right but not the ones to say it.
 
A rather eye opening point on this subject, is the behind-the-scenes workflow for Ender's Game. In this video, they explain that although the initial image acquisition is 5k from a Red Epic, towards the end of the pipeline it gets exported at 2048 x 880. The narrator informs us (at about 10:04 into the video) that "this is the final resolution for the movie". That's it- a big theatrical Sci Fi feature like that, at roughly the same amount of resolution data as 1080p (albeit at a different aspect ratio).


Just saw Ender's Game from up close in the front and given the fact that it is 2048x880 I was insanely impressed. If I hadn't known the actual resolution I would have never once even thought of it. Even knowing it going in last night it was never once a concern or removed me from the story.

I feel like people are getting too hung up on the 4k thing because they need something different or feel like it will finally be the thing that helps make them. RED was an exciting step forward but honestly the thing that really made RED amazing was the dynamic range and RAW recording and not so much the 4k resolution. The 4k helps maintain cleaner details for a 2k distribution but thats about it.

Ender's Game may have been shot at 5k but the first thing they do before they touch a single frame is scale that down to 2.5k. This is basically what most DSLRs have already done for us. This is why our video can look so clean even at higher ISO ratings. The down sampling of the 4k sensor helps clean up the image and gives extra detail over a straight bayer sensor. It is just sad that we then have to take that pristine sample and compress the heck out of it and lose all that color depth. I honestly would like to see DSLRs record a "true" clean down sampled RAW 2k or 1080p source or heck even 10bit ProRes 4:4:4 before a 4k heavily compressed source. Remember a DSLR recording RAW 2k will have a lot more detail then a 2k camera with only a 2k sensor recording RAW. We would in essence get exactly the same thing Ender's Game had to work with. If it is good enough for a Hollywood big budget movie I'm sure it will be good enough for us to shoot unboxing videos and cats in the backyard. I honestly think we are getting too hung up on the equipment making our careers.
 
Ender's Game may have been shot at 5k but the first thing they do before they touch a single frame is scale that down to 2.5k. This is basically what most DSLRs have already done for us.

No I would disagree it is "basically" what DSLR's have done.

DSLR's do not scale down video from the larger sensor the same way shooting 5k on the RED Epic scales down to 2k/HD. DSLR's pixel-bin or line-skip depending on the DSLR.


This is why our video can look so clean even at higher ISO ratings. The down sampling of the 4k sensor helps clean up the image and gives extra detail over a straight bayer sensor.

Again DSLR's do not downsample the higher megapixel sensor using "scaling" and the reason they can get higher ISO's and cleaner looking images is because of the pixel-binning or pixel-grouping effectively turning 4 surrounding pixels into 1. This drastically improves sensor sensitivity but at the expense of aliasing and moire.
 
"RED was an exciting step forward but honestly the thing that really made RED amazing was the dynamic range and RAW recording and not so much the 4k resolution"

Sorry, but Red's DR up until now has been its Achilles heel in my opinion. I remember watching a sci-fi film, alien invasion, lots of effects, shot on Red. They go into a parking garage and I'm blinded by blown the F out highlights glaring up the theater. I was horrified. Daylight scenes looked like garbage. Similarly interior windows were hideous, not film like in the slightest, and an insult to the audience in my view. I considered asking for my money back. I never, ever wanted to be in any way associated with imagery that blows out to digital white, as if that's okay. It ain't.

The Dragon sensor is their penance, and it looks pretty good, but the color science needs to tame their quirky brand of color.

4k (and 6!) is useful for punching in and cropping. It helps with VFX, but it's definitely overkill on most screens. Just not necessary and fewer than 10% of people would ever notice the difference. My wife doesn't even notice glaring white blow outs right in her face. The audience has been trained to accept crap DSLR imagery over this past decade. Youtube quality is now the norm, expected. That kind of conditioning makes most of these discussions moot. A thread at BMCUser complained about Bad Grandpa looking like ****, and still raking in millions.
 
budgets and equipment don't mean squat, and all the picture quality will not make up for lack of acting in a bad story line. Waterworld was a total flop, on the other hand Blair Witch, which was made on a fraction of the budget of Waterworld turned to be a hit of the season, making millions. Films like Crank or even a Slumbdog were filmed with relatively cheap equipment. Best equipment without capable crew = zero. And people will not be buying 4K TV sets, so they can watch Biggest Loser in 4K.
 
"RED was an exciting step forward but honestly the thing that really made RED amazing was the dynamic range and RAW recording and not so much the 4k resolution"

Sorry, but Red's DR up until now has been its Achilles heel in my opinion. I remember watching a sci-fi film, alien invasion, lots of effects, shot on Red. They go into a parking garage and I'm blinded by blown the F out highlights glaring up the theater. I was horrified. Daylight scenes looked like garbage. Similarly interior windows were hideous, not film like in the slightest, and an insult to the audience in my view. I considered asking for my money back. I never, ever wanted to be in any way associated with imagery that blows out to digital white, as if that's okay. It ain't.

The Dragon sensor is their penance, and it looks pretty good, but the color science needs to tame their quirky brand of color.

4k (and 6!) is useful for punching in and cropping. It helps with VFX, but it's definitely overkill on most screens. Just not necessary and fewer than 10% of people would ever notice the difference. My wife doesn't even notice glaring white blow outs right in her face. The audience has been trained to accept crap DSLR imagery over this past decade. Youtube quality is now the norm, expected. That kind of conditioning makes most of these discussions moot. A thread at BMCUser complained about Bad Grandpa looking like ****, and still raking in millions.

Granted RED wasn't the best but actually shooting RAW opened up a whole new world of range and depth most people never had outside of film. It also really depends on who is using the camera. I have seen outdoor shots with a DSLR that have been very impressive and blown out garbage from a camera with 11 stops of DR.
 
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