Who owns the Footage shot on my camera ?

S

Slimboni

Member
Sorry for double posting, I think this is a better place for my question.

I did find another thread talking about this subject, but i thought i'd ask the question again to see if anyone here had some insight on this particular situation i'm in. I do see myself sitting in front of a Lawyers desk asking these questions but wanted to get some feedback here first.

Here's a synopsis of what happened. Let's establish the fact that this was all verbal. (i know foolish).

1- I came up with the concept of a parody song and recorded it in my studio.
2- The song got National attention on NPR along with a story incuding "Rage against the Machine".
http://bettoarcos.com/?p=87
.
3-Then along with so called friends, we embarked on a video production for it.
4- My HVX200 was used to shoot all the footage.
5- My input at this point was limited because my 6 month old boy was having open heart surgery at Childrens Hospital L.A.

6- One of the so called friends (with my camera) shot the first footage while i was at the hospital and delivered a cut that I thought did not stand up to the song and it's message. I was not ready to approve and put my signature on it, not even close ! It was weak !

7- I offered him full directors credit, even for the footage I wanted to shoot to make the vid stronger..............his ego got soar and didn't want to go along with the idea?

8- I took out a million dollar insurance policy to shoot at 3 locations in L.A...........permits ect.

9- I was one of the producers along with 2 others in the music video. The other 2 agreed to let me shoot more footage. Because there were differences, we all agreed to let the first associate have his version, and I put out my version.

10- I directed the 2nd half and combined my footage and the footage shot on the first leg, because dummy associate left the footage he shot on my P2 cards when i picked up my camera.

11- Both versions were put up on Youtube about a week ago. My version as I'm writing has 1,438 hits to his 385 hits. He and his wife are a little upset about that. :)

12- He put's in an image violation complaint to youtube and now youtube ordered me to take the video down. I did the same for his version on the grounds of him using my song without permission. They are both coming down now. Sad !

My question is: Who owns the footage shot on the first leg of the project?

Thanks in advance for your input.

Slim
 
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Well, it's never your footage simply because it was shot on your camera. Actual ownership of it needs to be worked out between everyone involved -- and you should have had a clear agreement for it before you started. Now, it'll be harder to work things out, but before anyone can move forward, you need to.

(Also, phrases like "butt sore" -- not really in keeping with this board.)
 
The short answer... Unfortunately you may not own the rights to the video he shot... even on your camera... According to my copyright lawyer, whoever shoots the material has copyrights to the material. There is a legal catch phrase and test in these situations called "Keeper Of The Goods" which means who created and had possesion/control over the material such as editing and decisions etc. Again unfortunately it seems to be him. You created a song.. he created a video. Some states will accept a handshake and recognize verbal partnerships... if the people sat down and actually agreed verbally to enter into a particular agreement.
 
@ David Jimerson,

My bad, wrong choice of words. Apologies !

@ Tommy K,

As i mention in my post, he shot the first half, I shot the 2nd half.

I did a little more than just create a song.

You mention "possesion/control over the material such as editing and decisions".

I clearly mention that 2 versions were created which means I had possesion/control over material............editing............decisions?
 
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I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, but here's my interpretation of the situation:

In regards to the material you shot for your music video for your song: it's Yours to do what you wish of course.

In regards to the material HE shot and made a music video of with your song. He owns the picture, you own the sound. If you can agree on suitable terms, great; otherwise he can't use your song, and you can't use his video.

This is all assuming there are no specific contracts in place, or that no money or other payment for services rendered took place. (If you payed him to shoot the video for the music video (for example), then it's a whole different ball game.)



If I decide to shoot a music video to go with artist X's music; it doesn't mean I can then distribute the music video as mine, I don't own the song. But at the same time, the artist can't take my video - even if I posted it online where they could access it - and use it just because I shot it to go with their song.

- Mikko
 
Hey Mikko,

Thanks for the response!

I didn't quite understand what you meant when you said " But at the same time, the artist can't take my video - even if I posted it online where they could access it - and use it just because I shot it to go with their song."

Slim
 
Slimboni said:
@ David Jimerson,

My bad, wrong choice of words. Apologies !

@ Tommy K,

As i mention in my post, he shot the first half, I shot the 2nd half.

I did a little more than just create a song.

You mention "possesion/control over the material such as editing and decisions".

I clearly mention that 2 versions were created which means I had possesion/control over material............editing............decisions?
Click to expand...


I'm not a lawyer or play one either.. that's why I pay good money to one for his advise:)

I misunderstood part of your post... I thought he shot while you were at the hospital... Well it really comes down to each of you owning what each of you shot...

Did you guys jointly pay for the production costs of shoot #1 and #2? In other words if you both have invested in this project and can prove it, you co-own all the footage. Who has physical possession of all the raw footage right now? Do you both have copies? Sounds like you two may have to come to a mutual agreement on this and work it out. You can have your lawyer send him a "Cease and Desist" letter which may or may not bring him around.

What is the major problem here? Can you no longer work together to finish this project? Do you have a lot of money invested? It doesn't sound advantageous to either one of you to put out the very same project separately. Let cooler heads prevail and see if you can finish the project as planned.

I've had to finish a few projects with people that I ended up absolutely detesting after they revealed who the really were... if you catch the drift. I was looking out for my interests. Kill them with kindness... get it done and than get away...
 
Slimboni said:
Hey Mikko,

Thanks for the response!

I didn't quite understand what you meant when you said " But at the same time, the artist can't take my video - even if I posted it online where they could access it - and use it just because I shot it to go with their song."

Slim
Click to expand...

I mean if I decide to go make a music video for Eminem's latest song, I can't distribute it without permission from Eminem. BUT, he can't take my video and distribute it either without my permission.

- Mikko
 
mikkowilson said:
I mean if I decide to go make a music video for Eminem's latest song, I can't distribute it without permission from Eminem. BUT, he can't take my video and distribute it either without my permission.

- Mikko
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Well... maybe. Maybe not. Depends on how good his lawyer is and whether they can declare your video a "derivative work". The rights to derivative works vest with the copyright holder of the original work.

IANAL so I don't know if this would apply or not, but I do know you can't go claiming copyright to someone else's work, so ... if integral to your work is someone else's work, then you may very well not have rights to it after all.
 
Tommy K said:
Let cooler heads prevail and see if you can finish the project as planned.

I've had to finish a few projects with people that I ended up absolutely detesting after they revealed who the really were... if you catch the drift. I was looking out for my interests. Kill them with kindness... get it done and than get away...
Click to expand...

Great advice Tommy!

Both video's are down @ Youtube now. This is definitely a cooling period :) The other guy did not put out any $$$ but donated some usage of equipment (lights and dolly ect.) I pulled insurance and permits to the tune of about 4 g's. I have possesison of his footage, but he does not have possession of the $$$ footage I shot. His cut as i mentioned did not stand up to the concept I created. My cut, and i'm not just honking my own horn, had a story to it, which explains why my version got over 1,450 hit's in a week, while he got about 380 hits in about 2 weeks.
The problem was that I saw a final version (unbeknown by them) where they were not crediting me for the music. They can lie and say they were going to credit me (which i don't believe) because of previous shady encounters with this director, but in the end they did, only because i took a picture of the credit's with my phone and threw it in their face. (not literally)

The deal is that this first director wanted me to hand over my $$$ footage so that he could edit any way he pleased while keeping the creator of the concept (me) out of the loop. I didn't go for that which is why we made 2 separate videos to go with my song. I used the footage he shot in my version because he left the footage on the P2 when i picked up my camera. He would have been welcome to my footage if he would have reached in his pocket and dropped 1/2 of what i spent getting the shots i delivered. Also, he would have never tried to yank my video down if the hit count was visa versa.

To answer another of your questions, i am the only one with any kind of proof that money was spent.

Each separate video credited only one Director, and now that he realizes my version stomps all over his, he wants credit.........................but i am absolutely not gonna slap his name above mine..............below maybe. This is where it's at now and hopefully when the other players in the whole scheme get back in town, which is any day now, they will talk some sense into him and it will all work out to the good.

People's true colors really start to jump out once they start smelling $$$.......................................which was never my M O being that it's a political message that i am passionate about.
This guy never credited the artist which inspired the track like i did in my version.

From Children's Hospital right into another nightmare hasn't been easy. The good thing is my son is doing great............................he was in my version of the Vid :)

Thanks for the wisdom!
 
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Lost in all of this was your son and his condition.. I am very glad he is doing well. That is more important than anything.

OK after reading your last post, and digesting more of your situation and arrangement with the other guys... You may have a valid ownership claim to the entire project. If the concept was entirely created by you, you can claim copyright and ownership. Doesn't matter what they shot. You can keep them from publishing it. It will especially help if you have documentation in writing backing up your claim that you created the concept and the song. Treatment, log lines, script, notes, emails between all involved, dates etc. anything and everything that proves that the project is your intellectual property. This is a whole other story...


MY story:

I was in a similar situation as you about 5 years ago. I created a whole concept and script for a low budget late night cable/satellite movie ($70,000). A couple of guys I thought I knew... invested the production money, and I supplied all the equipment, directed, produced and edited the feature. I put months of work into it (my pay was supposed to be in the back end after the sale), and someone close to them tipped me off that they were just using me to do all the work, and were planning on not paying me, and were going to hand over my project to the lover of one of the investors.. so he could take the final credits for the production.... He planned to enter the film making industry as a "Director" this way. Even though he had absolutely no experience... BTW we had a LLC in place for the project...

Long story short.. I went to my Lawyer.. they went to theirs. It was determined that I owned the "Copyrights" to the whole project, was also "Keeper Of The Goods" and held all the cards... They were stunned. I dictated to them exactly what was going to take place in order for me to get paid, and for them to get their project back. I held the project for a long time until they paid me my share in full, and I also got the credits that I worked for... The "wannabe" would be Director went back to being a construction laborer.

I really detest dishonest and mean people...
 
Tommy K said:
The "wannabe" would be Director went back to being a construction laborer.

I really detest dishonest and mean people...
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I do too Tommy, the guy deserves to be Directing a shovel from here to there. We want to be able to trust people, especially friends (in my case) and be able to operate under the impetus of a good cause, on a handshake deal with people who are like minded. No more handshake deals for me! I guess i've learnd my lesson !

Since the video shoot started while i was gearing up for my son's surgury, there is very little documentation as i entrusted friends to handle and deliver footage that would stand up to the concept of the song. I had very little input at this time and only some of what i suggested verbally, made it to the first footage.




What i do have (which i'm hoping is strong in the world of copyright law) is :

1- taped radio interview when i debut the song, which by the way carries the exact name as the video title. This was debut over a month before video production began.

2- A website i put up to download the song, also put up over a month before video production.

3- All the reciepts for monies spent during the second leg of shooting.

4- All the footage for the entire project as i've previously mentioned.

5- a Hard copy of their Version which clearly does not credit me for the music.

6- chronological screen shots of the video hit counts as time went on, as they got slayed on
Youtube.


I do feel like I am the originator and owner of this intellectual property. I'm wondering what would be my next move here to secure my position?

I do have text's from this first director telling me his version is finished, all during the time i was kept out of the loop. And of course all the nasty text's between he and I all the way to the point where the videos were pulled down.

Thanks again!
 
Your best hope is to claim you ere producer and have rights to the first round footage on those grounds. If you can make a reasonable case that you instigated and facilitated the project and initial shoot then you have some hope therre. However that's all very legalistic and would only be relevant in court. Assuming you aren't planning to go there then you really have to come to an agreement with the initial director. If your are planning to go to court then you really need to talk to a lawyer about it, websites, versions of videos, YouTube stats and footage possession will mean very little however,
 
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