F55: Who here records to SR codec? Where to find material?
- Thread starter SJX
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Nate Weaver
Veteran
I've done quite a few jobs in SR. Not as many as I'd like, because it's not rare for for a project to need some off-speed material, and you can't over crank in SR. It gets tedious to switch formats back and forth while you're shooting.
It's much less compressed, and it shows in grading.
Pulling secondaries is cleaner...the macro block artifacts are about 1/4 of the size in SR as they are in XAVC.
XAVC is nice, but SR retains (again, slightly) sharper edges if you have a lit of tiny detail covering the frame (trees, foliage). You likely would never see it unless you go pixel peeping. But I hold the theory that better IQ like that is visible across an entire project, even if it's somewhat subliminal.
It's much less compressed, and it shows in grading.
Pulling secondaries is cleaner...the macro block artifacts are about 1/4 of the size in SR as they are in XAVC.
XAVC is nice, but SR retains (again, slightly) sharper edges if you have a lit of tiny detail covering the frame (trees, foliage). You likely would never see it unless you go pixel peeping. But I hold the theory that better IQ like that is visible across an entire project, even if it's somewhat subliminal.
SJX
Veteran
You can't record off speed frame rate in SR with F55? I think it works for F3.
It seems SR is better codec than Prores and Dnxhd. But these are more popular than SR for some reason.
Do you record SR more often than Prores with F55?
Do you know if I can download SR sample clips from sony or somewhere? I want to test if my system will work with it. Thanks.
It seems SR is better codec than Prores and Dnxhd. But these are more popular than SR for some reason.
Do you record SR more often than Prores with F55?
Do you know if I can download SR sample clips from sony or somewhere? I want to test if my system will work with it. Thanks.
Nate Weaver
Veteran
F3 doesn't record in SR. And no, sure can't overcrank SR on 55. Ooo, unless you meant with the SR-R1 back. In that case, yes, probably. Viddovation on this board would know the answer to that, he's the only human I've ever seen with the F3/SR-R1 combo.
Well, they drop in FCP and Avid straight away. This matters for big jobs. SR needs extra steps. Most people don't even know SR exists, much less figuring out which NLEs can deal with it.
Well, I don't do any ProRes with my 55 yet, so I guess the answer is yes?
Lemme see if I can find a short SR codec shot that I can put on dropbox.
starcentral
Veteran
The highest the F5/F55 can record in SR Codec is 29.97fps. In XAVC codec 180fps. With AXS-R5 RAW module, 240fps.
The F3 only works in 60p internally if you switch it to 720p. OR if you want 1080p 60p you need external recorder that supports it via dual-SDI.
The F3 only works in 60p internally if you switch it to 720p. OR if you want 1080p 60p you need external recorder that supports it via dual-SDI.
Grug
Veteran
I'm a big fan of the SR codec, I've started shooting most 'normal' speed (i.e. 25fps) material on the F5 in SR444. It's an extremely rich compressed video file (the most pliable 10-bit codec I've used outside of uncompressed 4:4:4), but all that quality comes with some significant caveats that you should be aware of.
The obvious one is very large recording sizes (only 21 mins of material to a 64gb card @ 25fps)
Workflow-wise it's supposed to import into FCPX (my personal go-to NLE) with a quick-time rewrapping and an import plugin, but I can't get that to work no matter what I try, so for the moment everything I shoot in SR444 is having to be transcoded to ProRes4444 via Davinci - which a painful additional workflow step. If they could get it to work natively like XAVC it'd be a lot easier to use, as is I only really suggest it for jobs that really need the extra quality of 4:4:4.
Having to switch from RGB mode and the SR444 codec into YPbPr mode and XAVC codec before I can switch into S&Q mode for off-speed recording (and then all the way back again for regular speed recording) is nothing short of a total, unreconcilable pain in the arse. It's the single biggest operational failing of the camera IMO, and needs to be rectified ASAP (XAVC is the only option for S&Q motion, so the camera should simply switch into that automatically when you turn S&Q mode on - then revert back to whatever your 'normal' shooting codec is when you switch it back off).
If the ProRes upgrade for the cameras allows us to shoot 12-bit 4:4:4 for S&Q motion without having to switch from RGB mode to YPbPr etc. etc. then it'll be worth it just for the time it saves on set. As it is I'm pulling my hair out every time I have to change it.
The obvious one is very large recording sizes (only 21 mins of material to a 64gb card @ 25fps)
Workflow-wise it's supposed to import into FCPX (my personal go-to NLE) with a quick-time rewrapping and an import plugin, but I can't get that to work no matter what I try, so for the moment everything I shoot in SR444 is having to be transcoded to ProRes4444 via Davinci - which a painful additional workflow step. If they could get it to work natively like XAVC it'd be a lot easier to use, as is I only really suggest it for jobs that really need the extra quality of 4:4:4.
Having to switch from RGB mode and the SR444 codec into YPbPr mode and XAVC codec before I can switch into S&Q mode for off-speed recording (and then all the way back again for regular speed recording) is nothing short of a total, unreconcilable pain in the arse. It's the single biggest operational failing of the camera IMO, and needs to be rectified ASAP (XAVC is the only option for S&Q motion, so the camera should simply switch into that automatically when you turn S&Q mode on - then revert back to whatever your 'normal' shooting codec is when you switch it back off).
If the ProRes upgrade for the cameras allows us to shoot 12-bit 4:4:4 for S&Q motion without having to switch from RGB mode to YPbPr etc. etc. then it'll be worth it just for the time it saves on set. As it is I'm pulling my hair out every time I have to change it.
SJX
Veteran
Yes I was talking about SR-R1 with F3. I think it records off speed frame rates from F3.
Yes Viddovation is a very nice guy and very knowledgeble. I have been talking to him about SR codec too. I think he said SR-R1 works with F3 for other frame rates.
Pity SR codec doesn't work easily with most programs. Looks like very good codec.
You don't record Prores with F55 because you don't like it?
Fantastic Nate! Thank you very much and also for being so fast.
Is 10 bit 444 the highest for SR 1080 in F55 or does it also 12 bit?
My system had no problem playing and grading that in Resolve. That was 440? You think 880 will make much difference for system?
SJX
Veteran
Thanks for report Grug.
I hate transcode and also offline. Wish more programs worked with SR.
This situation with F55 and have to change codecs for off speed rates is bad. Maybe all F5 and F55 owners write to Sony and ask? This is bad for their codec marketing I think.
Viddovation
Veteran
Thanks everyone for telling us about the SR codec implementation in the F5/F55 cameras.
For those who may run across this thread I do want to make clear that some of what's being discussed here are camera specific limitations as opposed to codec specific limitations. While the SR codec is apparently not available for material higher than 29.97fps on the F5/F55, the codec itself is good at least up to 60p. The Sony SR-R1 recorder accepts HD-SDI feeds including dual link and 3G, and records to multiple flavors of HDCAM-SR up to 60p. When being fed by the Sony PMW-F3 it supports Select FPS variable frame rate operation. For what it's worth, the SR-R1 can record 50p and 60p 1080 feeds from any camera, including the F5/F55 if they can output them (although I doubt anyone would go to the hassle).
Specific to the Sony F35, the SR-R1 is a viable recorder capable of 50p HDCAM-SR recording, and also can take the Sony F35's 12bit RGB 444 feed. If for whatever reason someone is shooting the F3 or F35 to match workflows with the F5/F55, the HDCAM-SR codec and SR-R1 recorder would potentially be a very useful tool.
Also, there are free plugins from Sony to use the SR codec in FCP and Avid. The FCP one does involve an extra step in quicktime rewrap of the mxf files, unfortunately.
For those who may run across this thread I do want to make clear that some of what's being discussed here are camera specific limitations as opposed to codec specific limitations. While the SR codec is apparently not available for material higher than 29.97fps on the F5/F55, the codec itself is good at least up to 60p. The Sony SR-R1 recorder accepts HD-SDI feeds including dual link and 3G, and records to multiple flavors of HDCAM-SR up to 60p. When being fed by the Sony PMW-F3 it supports Select FPS variable frame rate operation. For what it's worth, the SR-R1 can record 50p and 60p 1080 feeds from any camera, including the F5/F55 if they can output them (although I doubt anyone would go to the hassle).
Specific to the Sony F35, the SR-R1 is a viable recorder capable of 50p HDCAM-SR recording, and also can take the Sony F35's 12bit RGB 444 feed. If for whatever reason someone is shooting the F3 or F35 to match workflows with the F5/F55, the HDCAM-SR codec and SR-R1 recorder would potentially be a very useful tool.
Also, there are free plugins from Sony to use the SR codec in FCP and Avid. The FCP one does involve an extra step in quicktime rewrap of the mxf files, unfortunately.
Nate Weaver
Veteran
I don't like external recorders, I've had my issues with them. Also, they don't over crank either, usually. Big pain in ass.
When the 5/55 gets the internal ProRes upgrade, I'll likely be first in line. Unless it's $5K.
10 bit 444 is the highest in 5/55. No 12 bit. That sample was SR-Lite @220, I think.
FCP7 does SR. So does FCPX but you have to batch re-wrap to QT in SR Viewer before it will see them. Premiere and Avid, I don't know.
The SR codec in the 5/55 is a hardware chip, I know this for a fact. One chip JUST to do SR. If the limit is 29.97, then I'm sure it's this chip and it's not going to change in this camera model.
Going forward, I can see Sony discontinuing development on SR and pushing forward with variants of XAVC, as it's already defined for 4K, which SR is not. If they want a "SR-4K", they can just add a higher profile to XAVC I'd think and call it whatever.
Or in other words, I'm betting Sony realizes ProRes won the simple 1080p codec war.
SJX
Veteran
Silly me. I thought Pores in camera was already available and you just liked SR better.
Would you have any @880 sample? Hope I'm not asking too much.
I think somebody say it is supposed to work but doesn't.
Grug
Veteran
The 880mpbs version of SR isn't available on the F5(5) only a 220mbps 4:2:2 and a 440mbps 4:4:4 version.
I've pushed some SR footage through FCP7 using the SR plugin, it's FCPX that I haven't been able to get it to work with. Transcoding to ProRes4444 gives you a nice master file that can replace your SR444 files (which takes up about 25% less hard drive space), but it's a frustrating step to have to take in this day and age of shoot-to-edit file-based recording with codecs like ProRes.