Taylor Rudd
Veteran
It is important to do this, especially if your gear lives in waterproof cases.
White Salt or Battery Acid looking substance on both my AF-101
- Thread starter Mikungfu
- Start date
It is important to do this, especially if your gear lives in waterproof cases.
Mikungfu
Active member
The cases are not waterproof, although I don't usually use special anti damp products.
At this point I feel inclined to believe this is either some kind of galvanic reaction between metals or corrosion between metal and dampness. Either way, this should NOT happen. I've had many cameras in flight cases and never saw this reaction in metals. This has to do with the used metals composition, most probably... together with some particular athmospheric condition. But either way, this should never happen in the first place.
In any case (no pun intended), I have already requested a Unit Repair Order and will have this issue checked by Panasonic. I would be pretty imprudent if I was to try and further fix this myself within warranty periods.
Both cameras are soon being picked up for repair.
@Jan: sorry, I forgot to mention I'm in Europe.
At this point I feel inclined to believe this is either some kind of galvanic reaction between metals or corrosion between metal and dampness. Either way, this should NOT happen. I've had many cameras in flight cases and never saw this reaction in metals. This has to do with the used metals composition, most probably... together with some particular athmospheric condition. But either way, this should never happen in the first place.
In any case (no pun intended), I have already requested a Unit Repair Order and will have this issue checked by Panasonic. I would be pretty imprudent if I was to try and further fix this myself within warranty periods.
Both cameras are soon being picked up for repair.
@Jan: sorry, I forgot to mention I'm in Europe.
This is not galvanic corrosion. Galvanic corrosion occurs at the dissimilar metal junction, which is not what we see here (the open bolt hole). It does not look like an oxide (galvanic corrosion or rust). This appears to be salt deposits, which appear to be attracted to the edges of features (did you wipe off any of the deposits before taking the picture?).
I've seen this in outside environments in the presence of gasses high in salt compounds (this can be anything like salt air, battery fumes, fertilizers, and other salt compounds...). It can grow on anything; metal, plastic, paint. It can be extremely corrosive. First find out if it is a salt. If it is, you really need to identify the source. You may have more to worry about than just your camera if it is a salt and it formed like that in the case. You would have to have a serious concentration of something to do that.
It's hard to understand why it would form on the camera and no where else. So all of the above seems bogus to me. Your description of the material also makes it sound like it is not a salt and definitely not oxide. Perhaps a fungus.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Obviously we dont know what it is I did use the word guess in my post
However to my eyes fro the images the open bolt hole probbly has a stainless threaded insert meeting the magnesium body which is indeed a "dissimilar metal junction"
I have similar on my EX1 and nikon D3 , in fact probably all of my cameras - but they are mostly years old
S
However to my eyes fro the images the open bolt hole probbly has a stainless threaded insert meeting the magnesium body which is indeed a "dissimilar metal junction"
I have similar on my EX1 and nikon D3 , in fact probably all of my cameras - but they are mostly years old
S
Mikungfu
Active member
I have spoken with several people about this: People who work with chemistry and chemical products, locksmiths, and even microbiologists.
At this point, I'm more inclined to believe this is alluminnium rust. I have not attached enough pics but you can already understand that some of the places where this showed up don't have two metals in contact. Everything points in the direction that this happened where dampness might have condensed (metal because it's colder) and specially where it got trapped and had a harder time evaporating. This is why it shows up in holes, screw threads, etc... If you imagine where vapour would microscopically condense and stay longer deposited... Those are the exact places where this showed up.
This is why we don't see it in plastic, or plane metal surfaces exposed to the air. It makes perfect sense that this is some form of oxidation from some alluminum alloy used in the camera chassis.
What I find innacceptable is that I have tons of other metals inside my flight case (XLR plugs, lenses, keys...) and nothing had this oxidating reaction. So, the choice of alloy for the camera body seems to be oversensitive to oxidation, even at acceptable relative humidity. This is not like a bucket of water was thrown into the camera, or like it I vaporised water vapor from a kettle into the flight case interior, and then sealed it for several weeks. at best, there was some humidity in the air (65% or something) and after a few days in the flight cases, only the metal in these parts of the cameras showed this reaction.
So, from where I see it, the choice of metal alloy for these parts is oversensitive to damp. Far more sensitive than any material used in this kind of gear should be. In fact, if you think carefully, you'll realize that the problem takes place specially where the metal isn't painted. Where the metal has no protection (paint), like screw threads, inside of pores and holes, the metal around buttons, etc... That's where it takes place, combined with places where dampness would more easily deposit, as I said before.
So, after some reflection, I'm almost sure this is typical alluminum white rust. Pure alluminum can be relatively resistant to that but... Alluminum alloys are a lot more prone to that form of corrosion.
Just take a look at this link and you'll see I can't be too far from truth: http://www.ehow.com/how_8005540_measure-aluminum-corrosion.html
Is anyone able to confirm if the camera metal parts have alluminum in it's composition? Something tells me the answer is yes... And something tells me that such alloy choice for this camera body, may not have been the best choice. It's oversensitive and overexposed to oxidation, way beyound what would be normal or accpetable, considering nothing happened to any other metal objects in the flight cases, and considering it was not exposed to no extreme dampness... AT ALL. Maybe this alloy will be improved in future units...:embarasse
At this point, I'm more inclined to believe this is alluminnium rust. I have not attached enough pics but you can already understand that some of the places where this showed up don't have two metals in contact. Everything points in the direction that this happened where dampness might have condensed (metal because it's colder) and specially where it got trapped and had a harder time evaporating. This is why it shows up in holes, screw threads, etc... If you imagine where vapour would microscopically condense and stay longer deposited... Those are the exact places where this showed up.
This is why we don't see it in plastic, or plane metal surfaces exposed to the air. It makes perfect sense that this is some form of oxidation from some alluminum alloy used in the camera chassis.
What I find innacceptable is that I have tons of other metals inside my flight case (XLR plugs, lenses, keys...) and nothing had this oxidating reaction. So, the choice of alloy for the camera body seems to be oversensitive to oxidation, even at acceptable relative humidity. This is not like a bucket of water was thrown into the camera, or like it I vaporised water vapor from a kettle into the flight case interior, and then sealed it for several weeks. at best, there was some humidity in the air (65% or something) and after a few days in the flight cases, only the metal in these parts of the cameras showed this reaction.
So, from where I see it, the choice of metal alloy for these parts is oversensitive to damp. Far more sensitive than any material used in this kind of gear should be. In fact, if you think carefully, you'll realize that the problem takes place specially where the metal isn't painted. Where the metal has no protection (paint), like screw threads, inside of pores and holes, the metal around buttons, etc... That's where it takes place, combined with places where dampness would more easily deposit, as I said before.
So, after some reflection, I'm almost sure this is typical alluminum white rust. Pure alluminum can be relatively resistant to that but... Alluminum alloys are a lot more prone to that form of corrosion.
Just take a look at this link and you'll see I can't be too far from truth: http://www.ehow.com/how_8005540_measure-aluminum-corrosion.html
Is anyone able to confirm if the camera metal parts have alluminum in it's composition? Something tells me the answer is yes... And something tells me that such alloy choice for this camera body, may not have been the best choice. It's oversensitive and overexposed to oxidation, way beyound what would be normal or accpetable, considering nothing happened to any other metal objects in the flight cases, and considering it was not exposed to no extreme dampness... AT ALL. Maybe this alloy will be improved in future units...:embarasse
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Mikungfu
Active member
I have spoken with several people about this: People who work with chemistry and chemical products, locksmiths, and even microbiologists.
At this point, I'm more inclined to believe this is alluminnium rust. I have not attached enough pics but you can already understand that some of the places where this showed up don't have two metals in contact. Everything points in the direction that this happened where dampness might have condensed (metal because it's colder) and specially where it got trapped and had a harder time evaporating. This is why it shows up in holes, screw joints, etc... If you imagine where a liquid would condense and stay longer deposited... Those are the exact places where this showed up.
This is why we don't see it in plastic, or plane metal surfaces exposed to the air. It makes perfect sense that this is some form of oxidation from the metals used in the camera chassis.
What I find innacceptable is that I have tons of other metals inside my flight case (XLR plugs, lenses, keys...) and nothing had this oxidating reaction. So, were before the choice of metals that are oversensitive to humidity in the air. This is not like a bucket of water was thrown into the camera, or like it I vaporised water vapor from a kettle into the flight case interior, and then sealed it for several weeks. at best, there was some humidity in the air (65% or 70% or something) and after a few days in the flight cases, only the metal in these parts of the cameras showed this reaction.
So, from where I see it, the choice of metal alloy for these parts is oversensitive to damp. Far more sensitive than any material used in this kind of gear should be. In fact, if you think carefully, you'll realize that the problem takes place specially where the metal isn't painted. Where the metal has no protection (paint), like screw threads, inside of pores and holes, the metal around buttons, etc... That's where it takes place, combined with places where dampness would more easily deposit, as I said before.
So, after some reflection, I'm almost sure this is typical alluminum white rust. Pure alluminum can be relatively resistant to that but... Alluminum alloys are a lot more prone to that form of corrosion.
Is anyone able to confirm if the camera metal parts have alluminum in it's composition? Something tells me the answer is yes... And something tells me that such alloy choice for this camera body, may not have been the best choice. Maybe it will be improved in future units...:embarasse
At this point, I'm more inclined to believe this is alluminnium rust. I have not attached enough pics but you can already understand that some of the places where this showed up don't have two metals in contact. Everything points in the direction that this happened where dampness might have condensed (metal because it's colder) and specially where it got trapped and had a harder time evaporating. This is why it shows up in holes, screw joints, etc... If you imagine where a liquid would condense and stay longer deposited... Those are the exact places where this showed up.
This is why we don't see it in plastic, or plane metal surfaces exposed to the air. It makes perfect sense that this is some form of oxidation from the metals used in the camera chassis.
What I find innacceptable is that I have tons of other metals inside my flight case (XLR plugs, lenses, keys...) and nothing had this oxidating reaction. So, were before the choice of metals that are oversensitive to humidity in the air. This is not like a bucket of water was thrown into the camera, or like it I vaporised water vapor from a kettle into the flight case interior, and then sealed it for several weeks. at best, there was some humidity in the air (65% or 70% or something) and after a few days in the flight cases, only the metal in these parts of the cameras showed this reaction.
So, from where I see it, the choice of metal alloy for these parts is oversensitive to damp. Far more sensitive than any material used in this kind of gear should be. In fact, if you think carefully, you'll realize that the problem takes place specially where the metal isn't painted. Where the metal has no protection (paint), like screw threads, inside of pores and holes, the metal around buttons, etc... That's where it takes place, combined with places where dampness would more easily deposit, as I said before.
So, after some reflection, I'm almost sure this is typical alluminum white rust. Pure alluminum can be relatively resistant to that but... Alluminum alloys are a lot more prone to that form of corrosion.
Is anyone able to confirm if the camera metal parts have alluminum in it's composition? Something tells me the answer is yes... And something tells me that such alloy choice for this camera body, may not have been the best choice. Maybe it will be improved in future units...:embarasse
Mikungfu
Active member
Looks to me like your cameras liketo get down with the white stuff... Hopefully its just on the weekends...
Yeah, right... :-Laugh(DBG):
I've filled a repair order under warranty, at the Panasonic support website. Cameras will be picked up next week. I hope this also will help prevent future similar situations to other AG-AF100/101 customers.:thumbsup:
Here's to hoping your camera issue gets resolved!
I would however recommend that when you get yours back from Pany to pack desiccant gel packs in your flight case with your camera. It's just added protection for your investment. Everyone who uses cases with a tight seal should really have a pack or two of these along with their camera. I've read that a couple people on this forum were surprised to find moisture that ended up being trapped in their cases in the most unsuspecting environments. They are relatively cheap and some are reusable too!
Pelican makes a killer one: http://www.amazon.com/Pelican-1500D-Peli-Desiccant-Silica/dp/B0018O035O
Good luck, Let us know how it all works out!
I would however recommend that when you get yours back from Pany to pack desiccant gel packs in your flight case with your camera. It's just added protection for your investment. Everyone who uses cases with a tight seal should really have a pack or two of these along with their camera. I've read that a couple people on this forum were surprised to find moisture that ended up being trapped in their cases in the most unsuspecting environments. They are relatively cheap and some are reusable too!
Pelican makes a killer one: http://www.amazon.com/Pelican-1500D-Peli-Desiccant-Silica/dp/B0018O035O
Good luck, Let us know how it all works out!
Mikungfu
Active member
I will certainly let you know soon enough.:thumbsup:
I will also make sure I get desiccant gel packs before puting my cameras in my flight cases again. I certainly don't want to go through this again. I also sure hope nothing was damaged with this problem. Panasonic will certainly be checking that out soon.
I will also make sure I get desiccant gel packs before puting my cameras in my flight cases again. I certainly don't want to go through this again. I also sure hope nothing was damaged with this problem. Panasonic will certainly be checking that out soon.
Al MacLeod
Well-known member
Don't know what the metal is but looks like aluminum oxide. Any portion that isn't covered with the anodized coating like screw holes. I had a Eumig super 8 projector that had the aluminum
portion of the case covered with it. Tough to get off. The oxide is almost as strong as the metal.
portion of the case covered with it. Tough to get off. The oxide is almost as strong as the metal.
One other possibility. Were the cases in sunlight recently? The foam in the cases will contain plasticizers, these are compounded that are used to keep plastics suple and bendable. They do however vaporize when they get hot and then can condense on other objects. This is why you may have something that is very pliable when new, but over time hardens and eventually cracks. You used to see it in car dashboards, in the hot sun the plasticizers would come out and condense on the windshield, leaving a film. Since they are polymers they will be at tracked by/ or repelled by certain coating which could explain the locations you are seeing them.
GrumpyDiver
Member
Looks like galvanic corrosion to me. Steel screws and magnesium body, add touch of moisture, especially if there is a bit of a conductor like salt, and you have an instant battery and by-product that looks like a salt buildup.
Downunderwild
Member
Not 100% sure but the white powder crystals are probably zinc oxide. This can form on anything plated with zinc. It could also be cadmium, if this was used on the unit. Aluminium oxide can also look like this.
These oxides can be formed either if the unit gets wet / damp / moist, or maybe by an electrolytic reaction with other metals on the case or touching the case.
You can eliminate this sort of incidents from happening again by just using "Hovex Moth Balls" http://www.pascoes.com.au/products.php?which=56&level=13 (they come inside a strong plastic holder and they don't make a mess if ruptured) this product is inexpensive, readily available in supermarkets and better than most other moisture eating beads.
This has been a trick that I've learned to keep all ferrous tolls in tool boxes from rusting with moisture. I have used this for years and never had a problem with moisture with all my camera equipment.
The downside is, when you open the case, the stuff smells like grandma's linen cupboard, but remembering then, grandma always saved the day!
These oxides can be formed either if the unit gets wet / damp / moist, or maybe by an electrolytic reaction with other metals on the case or touching the case.
You can eliminate this sort of incidents from happening again by just using "Hovex Moth Balls" http://www.pascoes.com.au/products.php?which=56&level=13 (they come inside a strong plastic holder and they don't make a mess if ruptured) this product is inexpensive, readily available in supermarkets and better than most other moisture eating beads.
This has been a trick that I've learned to keep all ferrous tolls in tool boxes from rusting with moisture. I have used this for years and never had a problem with moisture with all my camera equipment.
The downside is, when you open the case, the stuff smells like grandma's linen cupboard, but remembering then, grandma always saved the day!
Mikungfu
Active member
@Al MacLeod, Jisgren, GrumpyDiver and Downunderwild:
Thank you all for the precious imput. All you are saying are relevant and considerable possibilities. I will follow all these advices and hope Panasonic gets my cameras restored to their previous state as soon as possible and, from then on I will use all these recomendations to prevent any of this from ever happening again.
Thank you all for the precious imput. All you are saying are relevant and considerable possibilities. I will follow all these advices and hope Panasonic gets my cameras restored to their previous state as soon as possible and, from then on I will use all these recomendations to prevent any of this from ever happening again.
I've seen this twice with my own gear. One was an Arri SR3 body, the other a Sony BVP90. In both instances the equipment was stored in foam lined (Excalibur) hard cases, and both were stored in areas that were not climate controlled and subjected to periods of high humidity. Both were also left untouched/opened for greater than six months. It is definitely galvanic corrosion. I've also seen this on yachts where stainless fasteners attached metal hardware to aluminum.
Mikungfu
Active member
I see... Well the main differences in this case are the fact that the cameras stayed inside the cases for no longer than a couple of weeks (at worst), and also that the rust didn't show up only where two metals are in contact but, also where single uncoated metal hole could be found (as seen in pics). But yes... Other than that there are some common points to my situation.