Which is Better: S-LOG w/o Ex Recorder or Ex Recorder w/o S-LOG?

U

Unicorn Power

Member
So I'm putting together my package for my F3 now. I have a limited budget. Unfortunately, I won't be able to purchase both S-LOG and an External Recorder such as Ninja, Samuri or Ki Pro Mini, but I can buy one of them...

If I buy a Recorder, they claim that I can get 10 Bit 4:2:2 in ProResHQ depending on whether I buy the Ki Pro ($2,000: compressed) or Ninja/Samuri ($1,000/$1,500: uncompressed).

If I buy S-Log, I can get 10 Bit 4:4:4 with the added Gamma Range and LUTs for $3,800. However, I will have to use the SxS cards, so it will only come out at 4:2:0 due to compression. Plus, the SxS cards are $1,000 each. and I'd definitely need two, that would bring the total price to $5,800.

So what do you think will look better in regard to image quality: compressed S-LOG on the native XD CAM codec MP4 or the recorder with uncompressed 4:2:2 transcoded to ProResHQ?


I would think that the Recorder would have the better image quality, but veteran poster LeavingtheCandy says:

"I'd rather have SLOG with NO external recorder than a non-SLOG camera and an external recorder! SLOG is like finding the Holy Grail. Indian Jones was off the mark!"

The Thread can be found here: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...ni-to-Use-the-S-LOG-Firmware-Update-on-the-F3
 
Id get the recorder. It makes non log better, and u can rent log when you need it. Or upgrade in the future.
 
I'd like to clarify--it really depends upon what you plan to shoot and deliver. SLOG gives you more range, more sensitivity and certainly more challenges, but the rewards is post are numerous! If you shoot low/natural light, I believe SLOG is money in the bank. If you do ENG style stuff, you probably need neither. I shot a couple of times recently with just going to XDCam, standard profiles, non-log and I felt liberated: dump in, edit, done.

SLOG is a wonderfully awesome tool, but requires a MUCH more controlled setting and substantially more post. A KiPro makes EVERYTHING you shoot technically better, but not necessarily essential. (there's some awesome stuff being shot just F3 to XDCam).

Bottom line is that is depends on what you are shooting and for what delivery. However, with SLOG, you can get shots you just can't get otherwise, while the recorder only doesn't have the same claim.

Timur's approach is very practical, but I have to wonder if it's easier to rent a recorder than SLOG. I bet it is.
 
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I say S-Log first, which is what I did.

The latitude and better color rendition of S-Log still works no matter how it's recorded.
 
Unicorn Power said:
If I buy a Recorder, they claim that I can get 10 Bit 4:2:2 in ProResHQ depending on whether I buy the Ki Pro ($2,000: compressed) or Ninja/Samuri ($1,000/$1,500: uncompressed).

If I buy S-Log, I can get 10 Bit 4:4:4 with the added Gamma Range and LUTs for $3,800. However, I will have to use the SxS cards, so it will only come out at 4:2:0 due to compression. Plus, the SxS cards are $1,000 each. and I'd definitely need two, that would bring the total price to $5,800.
Click to expand...

One other factor for you to consider. If you buy a recorder you will have automatic dual/back up recording. Using a card adapter like the MxR allows you to use much cheaper SDHC cards like the Transcend class 10 cards. Much, much cheaper and easier to carry. The tiny amount of less reliability (and I do mean tiny) is covered by the dual recording.

S-LOG, RECORDER, RECORDER MEDIA, CAMERA MEDIA
Samurai $1,600 (the ninja doesn't have SDI and with S-Log you can't enable both)
HDD..........$200 (probably less, assuming you use a SATA drive)
S-Log....$3,600 (it may be cheaper depending on where you are located.)
MxR..........$120 (for two)
SDHC.......$300 (for two)

grand total $5,820 (I'm certain that I could actually get all this for ~$4,800.)

S-LOG, SxS CAMERA MEDIA
Compare that to buying S-Log and a couple SxS cards
S-Log.....$3,600
SxS........$2,000 (assuming two high capacity cards)

grand total $5,600

See, you really can get both S-Log and the recorder. You can upgrade media later and shoot now.
 
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This seems like a rather misleading list. Why do you have to get SxS cards with the SLOG?
Adapters work fine whether it's SLOG, or not--the media doesn't care.
 
I think his point is if your only going to record internally, better to have a more 'reliable' recording media since you dont have a second copy going to a external. With that, Duke does state that MxR adapters w good cards are very reliable. I'll concur that in three years using MxR adapters with fast Sandisk cards in my EX1 I've had 100% reliability. I'm now using the newer MxR Extreme adapter with the fastest 32gb Sandisk SDHC in my F3, when recording with my KPM or just internally.
 
I compared it to S-Log on SxS cards due to the slight increase in reliability and because that's what the original poster stated as his option. Look at the 2nd part of his post that I quoted. I did the comparison he discussed.
 
Duke M. said:
One other factor for you to consider. If you buy a recorder you will have automatic dual/back up recording. Using a card adapter like the MxR allows you to use much cheaper SDHC cards like the Transcend class 10 cards. Much, much cheaper and easier to carry. The tiny amount of less reliability (and I do mean tiny) is covered by the dual recording.

See, you really can get both S-Log and the recorder. You can upgrade media later and shoot now.
Click to expand...


Great response, Duke. I really appreciate you clearing that up for me.

I was worried about adapters because the Sony website cautions against them due to reliability issues. They claim that they should only be used for emergencies. I had my suspicions though, but I wasn't sure because I have had no personal experience with them. It makes sense that Sony would try to steer the revenue towards the much more expensive SxS cards which are $1,000 each for 32GBs, than they would towards the SD cards which are only a fraction of the price.

Besides, I never liked the SxS cards for the simple reason that only MBP 17" is the only laptop that has an Express port. I have a MBP 15" and MBP 13", the MBP 17" is just too big for me to consider it a portable laptop... but I'm just a little guy after all.

Now that I know that they're reliable, I'll reconsider, especially considering the dual back up option... it makes good sense.

********EDIT*********

By the way, just last month when working on my first project with an F3, I had to run over to B&H to ask if they had any such adapters. The sales rep told me that such things did not exist and that instead I would have to buy a $350 Express Card Reader. I thought to myself, is this what everyone who uses F3 must do? Maybe the sales rep just didn't know though...
 
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I use a 17" MBP so dealing with SxS is not a problem. With the MxR adapters with SDHC, I can put the adapter in the Expresscard slot or use a USB SDHC card reader. For your 15" MBP you can obviously just use the SDHC slot. For what it's worth, I used to have a older 15" MBP and when I upgraded I went with the 17" for the sole reason of the Expresscard slot. For me, I dont find it to big what so ever. It fits perfect in the laptop slot of my older and newer LowePro camera backpacks.
 
Not to put a damper on anything, but I pleadingly beg everyone to be wary of these in camera adapters. They fail so often it is really a dangerous way to shoot. If you must work this way, my suggestion is for you to pair an SDHC card with an adapter and then PERMANENTLY GLUE THEM TOGETHER. The little connections inside these adapters are usually what fail first, but they are so relatively inexpensive that some consider them expendables.
 
Mitch, I will bow to your position at Abelcine and the fact that you see the 1 in ten thousand guy that I never see among my friends. But I can say I ran the MxR in my EX1 for about a year and about a half hear in my F3 with nary a glitch.

And rather than pulling the MxR card each time I more often pull the SDHC card out when its time to swap cards. (Note: for some strange reason you can't do that to both cards one after another or it won't recognise them. You can do it to one card just fine. I start with two 32 gig cards and replace one, and that pretty much allows me to shoot all day in a narrative situation.)

Admittedly, you see the more unusual cases. But recognising there may be problems that's why I think its best when you have an external recorder. The internal cards are then just a back up.
 
I'd never use S-Log with the heavy compression on the internal cards. The main advantage of S-Log is more freedom when grading. But If you have S-Log with massive compression, it's gonna fall apart with strong grades.
OTOH you can get very far with the Cinematone profiles and an external recorder. So. I second the recommendation of an external recorder like the Samurai and rental of S-Log if you ever need it.
 
Unicorn Power said:
So what do you think will look better in regard to image quality: compressed S-LOG on the native XD CAM codec MP4 or the recorder with uncompressed 4:2:2 transcoded to ProResHQ?
Click to expand...

Personally, I would not try to do S-LOG on SxS cards. If you can't afford S-LOG and and an external recorder, I'd just save my money not get either one right now. If you're serious about judging the difference for yourself, I have 50GB of test footage available that was shot with SxS cards, Cinedeck EX, Gemini, Ki Pro Mini, Pix 240, NanoFlash -- with and without S-LOG.
http://www.vortexmedia.com/F3_TEST_DRIVE.html
 
Telling you man, standard gammas, recorded to prores will give you more, than Log recorded to sxs.... plain and simple.
 
I won't disagree with that, but I will add: If you don't mind baking in your look at the time of shooting, a good Picture Profile that uses Cinegammas recorded to SxS will give you a better final result than S-LOG recorded to SxS and graded in post.
 
Sony told me in an email something different?

Sony told me in an email something different?

Hi Mike,


No, the S-LOG can only be output via the SDI ports to an external recorder. You cannot capture S-Log to the SxS cards. These can only record video in the XDCAM EX codecs.


Hope this is helpful. Let us know if you have any other questions.


Best regards,




Ian Cook
Sony Broadcast and Professional Company
(800) 883-6817 Phone
(201) 833-5210 Fax
ian.cook@am.sony.com



This is why I did not buy s-log for the internal only XDcam on my F3? But you guys are all saying you get s-log on the SxS cards?

What is the truth? very confused?
 
Ian is usually a good source of accurate information, but in this case is wrong -- or you are quoting him from many months ago before S-LOG was actually released. But either way, he is incorrect.

Yes, you can record S-LOG to the SxS cards. The real question is how well does it hold up to grading? That was one of the purposes of creating my 126 shots (50GB) of test footage comparing s-log, cinegammas, bit rates from 35Mbps up to 1500Mbps, 8 bit vs. 10 bit, ProRes, XDCAM, Cineform, DNxHD, uncompressed DNX, etc.
 
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