Which HD cam? (yes, another one...)

chromeboy007

chromeboy007

Well-known member
Ok I know someone else recently had started a thread on this topic, but my concerns and requirements are very different so I thought maybe some of you experts can give me some input.

I have been using the DVX100B for a few years now. First as a hobby but started professionally this past summer. I'm totally happy with its' footage, unfortunately in this day and age everyone wants HD. Like they can even tell the difference - a long time client of mine did not know that my cam was not a HD cam until she asked. But it is what it is, it's time to upgrade.

So here is what I want, starting from the most important criteria:

- HD - 1920 not needed but nice to have
- 16:9 native - I think they are all like now
- (real) progressive frame rates - 24 and 30. I don't EVER want to hit that de-interlace button in FCP or Compressor, EVER!
- reliability - the HMC150 was penciled in until I started hearing all these 'Check Card Error' threads here and else where. I can't afford to let that happen once. Clients understand if you lose 15 seconds of footage because you are changing tape, but try explaining 'Check Card Error'.
- under $5000 MSRP
- an HD format that's 'easier' for less powerful computers to process. I have the new i7 Quad core 2.8G 4G RAM - totally awesome for SD but not sure if I can edit HD smoothly. I hear the HDV is better than others, no?
- dynamic zoom button - sounds silly I know, but the DVX only has 3 steps. I like the zoom to be more dynamic.
- 2 XLR jacks
- not too big - ideally similar in size and weight as the DVX

You will notice that picture quality is not one of my criteria.... honestly, all the test footage look the same to me.

So after my research I have a few candidates:

Sony HRV V1U and Z5U
Sony HDR FX1000
Canon HX A1S
JVC GYHM100U
and finally, Pana HMC150

I like to stay with Panasonic even at a higher price if they can figure out this SD card issue (especially since I recently spent hundreds of dollars on Panny accessories). But everyday I'm slowly moving towards the Sony's and Canon.

Any inputs is appreciated.

Thanks
 
also note 60p = slowmotion

and its way under 5000 msrp. more like 3000-3500

and yeah your computer could edit it, maybe add more ram. if it cant, just convert to dvcpro.

and you get all the support here
 
from a previous hmc150 user, NEVER had a card error on my 120+ hrs of hmc usage. really depends on the card you use. such thing probabl happens but im sure, very seldomly. I recommend getting sandisk extreme although i never had a problem once with kingston.

if 1080 isnt a must, hmc150 would fit perfectly. no tapes, lighter, cheaper and you can buy more accesories with the extra money from the 5000

add a 99$ cineform neoscene on your editing machine and your good to go!
 
I have used ALL of those cameras and have had grievances with all of them except for the hmc150 which I own. Just get it. You won't be dissapointed I promise you that.

:bath:
 
Maybe not 1920, but otherwise, you have described the Panny 170. Using P2 is the most reliable. Easier to edit. Feature wise it is a DVX on steroids. And, with rebates, you can get the cam and a couple of P2 cards for $5000.

Grant
 
Sony HRV V1U

Far too out of date now, poor in low light as well. 1/4" chips. Not even in the same class as the HMC150

and Z5U

Good option if you want to use tapes. But be aware, in my experience tapes are much more unreliable than SD cards. I've never had a problem with my HMC150 after 30+ weddings (305 hours usage so far) and numerous corporate videos. I quite often had problems with tapes though, sometimes with large sections or even an entire tape unusable. Also this camera is CMOS and suffers badly with flash banding.

Sony HDR FX1000

Consumer camera, not really suitable for pro work except maybe as a B cam.

Canon HX A1S

Poor in low light compared to HMC150 and Z5. Also it is more suitable to interlaced recording rather than progressive. Again, it is tape based.

JVC GYHM100U

Probably poor in low light, only 1/4" chips I believe, not really comparable to the HMC150, more like the HMC40

and finally, Pana HMC150

Just buy it, it's the best option all round.
 
The 720 "sweetspot" is debateable. Barry Green now thinks 1080P is best for this cam.

HDV is roughly equivalent in quality to HA mode on this cam. So PH and HG modes are better than HDV.

I think 85% of "noisy blacks" on this cam are from not black balancing after powering up. Fiddling with the pedestal and detail will take care of most of the rest.

I have had a card die. It was an A-DATA class 6. On the other hand. I have been using OCZ class 6 cards for a few months and LOTS of event footage with no problem.

I bought my HMC150 a few months ago for $3229 USD from FullCompass.com. I talked to Jon. Talk to a sales guys and the price will be lower than stated on the website. Still the best bang for the buck.

And if you do any long event footage (long record times) this camera is almost a must!
 
Like all others have stated, the card check error is a function of bad media, not the camera.

I have what is I believe one of the original batch of the camera (bought it from FullCompass.com the first month it was out, and it was one of their last from their first shipment). No card issues. Ever. I got way too many bum tapes when I was shooting with my DVX. You'll occasionally get a bum card. It happens. But that goes for any media other than P2 (which is pretty much bullet proof).

Seriously, buy the camera. You won't regret it.
 
Chromeboy:

You didn't mention in your list if you want a tape (HDV format) based or solid state based (several formats). So I guess that's not a deciding factor.

When you take the image quality out of the decision tree, you can eliminate the Sony EX-1R, which is above your price point anyway.

You also didn't put the Sony NX cam on your list. Why is that?

I use the HMC-150 and have not lost any clips yet. But if clip security is absoulutely critical, I agree with the other poster that you are practically describing the HPX-170.

Also, none of these cameras are perfect, that's why they keep introducing new models.
 
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Badhairdude:

and yeah your computer could edit it, maybe add more ram. if it cant, just convert to dvcpro.
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See, SD is just SD. HD, on the other hand, has all these different formats and I tried googling, but the info seems very scattered - can you recommend a good read on these formats?

dcloud:

if 1080 isnt a must, hmc150 would fit perfectly. no tapes, lighter, cheaper and you can buy more accesories with the extra money from the 5000
Click to expand...

aahh... HMC doesn't shoot in 1080?

Grant:

Maybe not 1920, but otherwise, you have described the Panny 170. Using P2 is the most reliable. Easier to edit. Feature wise it is a DVX on steroids. And, with rebates, you can get the cam and a couple of P2 cards for $5000.
Click to expand...

Where do you get a deal like this from????

Studio1972:

Good option if you want to use tapes. But be aware, in my experience tapes are much more unreliable than SD cards.
Click to expand...

Really? I have had only 2 instances with miniDV over the years - once a new tape almost jammed on me and another my footage relocated itself to another part of the tape... but they happened a long time ago when I had less exp with it...

Denwa:

I bought my HMC150 a few months ago for $3229 USD from FullCompass.com. I talked to Jon. Talk to a sales guys and the price will be lower than stated on the website. Still the best bang for the buck.
Click to expand...

You are in Kelowna... I used to live in BC but now I'm in Toronto (still cheer for the Canucks!). Did our customs not tax you to death from buying in the US?

If I had to go back to tapes. I'd cry. I hated watching tape capture.
Click to expand...

LOL I don't watch it either! Just go do something else while it runs!

Jeff:

You also didn't put the Sony NX cam on your list. Why is that?
Click to expand...

It's not out yet... I didn't know about it til your post. Sounds solid from what limited info I have read though.

Thanks for the input so far - I guess I can eliminate the Canon, JVC and the Sony V1U and FX1000, and add the HVX170, if I can get a good deal on it and the P2 cards....
 
chromeboy007 said:
aahh... HMC doesn't shoot in 1080?
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Of course it does. 1080/24p, 1080/30p, and 1080/60i. I think what they were referencing is that the overall level of detail in the HMC150's 1080 isn't quite as high as it is in some other cameras.

Where do you get a deal like this from????
Click to expand...
Any authorized retailer. B&H has the HPX170 for $4795, including a 16GB P2 card, and you can get a $500 rebate from Panasonic, bringing your total cost to $4295. You can then buy a second P2 card for under $400 and still have a total system cost of under $5000.
 
chromeboy007 said:
Really? I have had only 2 instances with miniDV over the years - once a new tape almost jammed on me and another my footage relocated itself to another part of the tape... but they happened a long time ago when I had less exp with it...

.
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Well, I've had 2 bad experiences with mini DV, both with brand new tapes. presumably there was some dust on the record head but i didn't find out until I tried to ingest the tapes. I've had no such problems with the cards despite using the same ones over and over, so yes, in my experience and I think many others, the cards are much more reliable.

Also, I would guess HDV is less reliable than DV as it is long GOP and hence you need to use better quality tapes.

I even had somebody trip over the power cable once, pulling the plug whilst filming. When I plugged it back in the camera asked me if I wanted it to repair the clip. I said yes and it did it perfectly.

The tapeless workflow is much more efficient as well, but that's a different matter.
 
The Z5 has the best LCD screen and the best EVF among all handycams, which really helps with focusing. Its third-generation HDV codec is pretty solid. The MRC1K CompactFlash recorder is pricey, but integrates tightly with the camera without cables hanging around and provides full tapeless workflow. MPEG-2 is much easier to edit than AVCHD, so you will have tapeless format that is compatible with all major NLEs and it will fly on your i7 machine. On the other hand, AVCHD should be pretty snappy on your machine too.

If you haven't invested in memory cards yet and you don't specifically want CCD, then wait couple of months for the NXCAM camera, it will be a tapeless Z5 with AVCHD codec and MemoryStick cards.

Or find a used XH-A1 for about $2-2.5K.
 
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You are absolutely right about the Z5 having the best LCD and EVF. But the Z5 also pairs HDV with CMOS chips, a combo that many do not want to have to deal with.

It'll be interesting to see how the NXCAM compares to the HMC150. Since Sony has had about a year and a half to develop a response to the HMC150, it should be a better cam....but wheather it will actually be remains to be seen. The use of generally more costly, proprietary memory stick media--if that is the path they take--would be a real bummer.
 
sewolla said:
You are absolutely right about the Z5 having the best LCD and EVF. But the Z5 also pairs HDV with CMOS chips, a combo that many do not want to have to deal with.

It'll be interesting to see how the NXCAM compares to the HMC150. Since Sony has had about a year and a half to develop a response to the HMC150, it should be a better cam....but wheather it will actually be remains to be seen. The use of generally more costly, proprietary memory stick media--if that is the path they take--would be a real bummer.
Click to expand...
I am irritated by Sony's lack of clear policy when it comes to recording formats and media. Why CompactFlash for MRC1K, but MemoryStick for the NXCAM? CompactFlash would be a better choice, there are SD-to-CF adapters, but MemoryStick cards are too small. Though there are MicroSD-to-MS adapters as well, like this, I wonder will they work:

254-869.jpg


I read a bit more about this adapter. Seems that it does not work in Sony camcorders, though it works in PSP and digicams. Boo to Sony.
 
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chromeboy007 said:
What's wrong with that combo?
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HDV has a lower picture quality and resolution compared to AVCHD as well as being more limited in frame rate and size options.

CMOS suffers from flash banding and other rolling shutter effects.

From what I've heard of the NXCam it looks like the only real advantage over the HMC is a better LCD screen, not exactly a huge advantage. Against that you have to consider the CMOS issues and the Memory sticks and I think the lens is also less wide than the HMCs. For event work I think the HMC will still probably be better (and also probably cheaper). Who knows, maybe Panasonic will release an updated HMC with a better LCD before too long as well.
 
One other quick thing, chromeboy said he is using a mac with Final Cut. This means that the AVCHD footage will be transcoded into ProRes so he shouldn't have any difficulty editing it at all. Might be worth getting more RAM though.
 
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