Which fixed ND filter for the FS100 kit lens?

moldcad

moldcad

Veteran
OK, so even though I do have a proper set of 4x4" ND filters for use with the matte box, and the Heliopan vario ND - I decided that for the kit lens I need an old good screw-on fixed ND one, too...

The reasons are two-fold:

- the kit SEL18210 lens is the one I most often use in R&G style of shooting, so I'd like to put something on it that cuts a good amount of light, and forget about it - no adjustments

- of all my glass, it's the kit lens that is most prone to exhibit the dreaded cross-hatch vignette with the variable ND filter

However, I'm uncertain on which ND value filter I should buy. On a bright sunny day at this time of year, keeping the shutter at 180 deg, I need to close the kit lens as much as F22 to get proper exposure... I realize a single ND filter will not cover all lighting conditions / DOF requirements, but if I define aperture in the 4.0-8.0 range as my goal - which ND value do I need?

My calculations suggest at least ND 1.5, but I don't have much experience with external filters as all my previous cameras had internal ones. Can someone more knowledgeable suggest the best compromise?

Of course, if I really need a shallow DOF, I will not hesitate to increase my shutter speed from 180 to 90 deg, which will give me some extra flexibility..
 
I stack a 1.2 and a .6 on very bright days. I can removed one when moving into shadow for example.

Actually I have .3, .6, .9 and 1.2 and mix and match and stack for the lens speed and light level I am shooting in. It is much less hassle than it may first appear.

If I find myself in a situation with slightly too much ND on I use a few (3-6) dB of gain which works nicely without adding any perceivable noise to the image.
 
Thanks Nirv - the .3, .6, .9 and 1.2 are exactly the 4x4" filters that I am using with the matte box. However, for the screw-on, I would like to buy just one at the moment (possibly adding another one in the future). What do you think of my 1.5 candidate?

Also, can you stack 2 screw-on filters on the SEL18-210 (stock lens), and still use its petal lens hood?
 
You might want to consider that IMO heavy ND on the front of the lens tends to suffer from reflections and may need to be shaded

Ive got a french flag on a magic arm which can be moved to account for the zoom movement

I think you need to swap between your VND and a heavy ND

Which one Im not sure either which one to buy - 4 or 6 stops aka 1.2 or 1.8

I would agree with Nirv that clicking up the gain is something you should not be scared of - I often do this to account for the zoom lens changes in aperture..

As for the petal lens hood my fingers cant get in it to manipulate the filters - put it in the bin

I would be buying round filters at 77mm anyway which have more uses than the 67 and a step up ring

S
 
moldcad said:
Thanks Nirv - the .3, .6, .9 and 1.2 are exactly the 4x4" filters that I am using with the matte box. However, for the screw-on, I would like to buy just one at the moment (possibly adding another one in the future). What do you think of my 1.5 candidate?

Also, can you stack 2 screw-on filters on the SEL18-210 (stock lens), and still use its petal lens hood?
Click to expand...

You are right about 1.5 and I wish my 1.2 was 1.5! I'll be ordering a 1.5 and 1.8 soon to complete the set.

I have been stacking 1 ND plus the Genus ND Fader (a total of 3 filters which is norty) and it only portholes at 18-24-ish. I have fallen out of love with the Fader as it has been the No.1 cause of indifferent results with soft to out of focus images to WB issues so I'm just going to go with solid screw ons.

You can't keep the hood on and remove filters without putting finger prints on the filters. I'm looking for a very light (which means cheap and nasty) clip on matte box. I have a serious neck injury that means I have to keep things as light as possible otherwise I would've gone for matte box, rails and 4x4s like others here.
 
OK - so I have decided to go with ND 1.2. Four stops cut will bring me down from F22 to F5.6 on a sunny, summer day - which is in the middle of the kit lens' maximum aperture range. Should I need to close even further (like for those special, extremely shallow DOF scenes in full sunlight), I can always use shutter speed of 1/100th. Otherwise, I'll be fine with smaller apertures like F8.0.


For indoors shooting, the kit lens doesn't need ND, anyway. BUT on a cloudy day the ND 1.2 might be a bit too strong...

So, as a second thought, I guess getting 2 filters (like 0.9 and 0.6) would be most flexible and cover all lighting conditions, but I'm reluctant about stacking screw-on filters - given the FS100 reflections vulnerability... What do you think? Does anyone stack 2 screw-on filters on the stock lens?
 
moldcad said:
So, as a second thought, I guess getting 2 filters (like 0.9 and 0.6) would be most flexible and cover all lighting conditions, but I'm reluctant about stacking screw-on filters - given the FS100 reflections vulnerability... What do you think? Does anyone stack 2 screw-on filters on the stock lens?
Click to expand...

I stack 2 on the Kit lens and it does not worsen any reflection you may get as far as I have been able to determine. The kit lens is not particularly vulnerable to reflections IMHO, it's just too slow.

You may porthole at 18mm if you use 67mm NDs, go bigger.
 
Trying to make up my mind on which fixed ND filter to buy for the kit lens, for R&G shooting and considering the vario-ND Heliopan doesn't fit the hood, and the 77mm rubber hoods vignette - I realized there is one more important factor to be considered:


- at which aperture value do diffraction softness start on the kit lens?


I don't have access to resolution charts etc., so I can only judge with my naked eyes - and must say haven't noticed any at up to, and including, F11... But perhaps some of you guys have more precise data to share?


TIA,


Piotr


PS. BTW, the same question applies to the 11mm pancake with the 0.75% wide converter combo, as this is almost impossible to bet NDed at all :(
 
moldcad said:
Trying to make up my mind on which fixed ND filter to buy for the kit lens, for R&G shooting and considering the vario-ND Heliopan doesn't fit the hood, and the 77mm rubber hoods vignette - I realized there is one more important factor to be considered:


- at which aperture value do diffraction softness start on the kit lens?


I don't have access to resolution charts etc., so I can only judge with my naked eyes - and must say haven't noticed any at up to, and including, F11... But perhaps some of you guys have more precise data to share?


TIA,


Piotr


PS. BTW, the same question applies to the 11mm pancake with the 0.75% wide converter combo, as this is almost impossible to bet NDed at all :(
Click to expand...

Piotr

Have you not considered a 67mm Heliopan for the kit lens? I bought one on the recommendation of this forum and have been blown away by the quality.

The 67mm fits inside the kit lens hood and it's easy to adjust the ND setting and it doesn't porthole like my Genus did at 18mm. It's ideal for video style shoots on the move. I'm going to get another 77mm heliopan when the bank balance has recharged for my other lenses. The difference between the Heliopan and Genus couldn't be greater.

I did some quick tests of lens diffraction and they weren't scientific but didn't see anything to concern me throughout the aperture range. F16 was marginally softer than f5 for example. At F22 the kit lens was less soft than the 16mm Pancake at F4 so I've seen more softness from other lenses than lens diffraction on the kit lens.

Cheers
 
Nirv said:
I'm going to get another 77mm heliopan when the bank balance has recharged for my other lenses.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the answer - the above quote sums up my situation :)

Another Vario-ND is much more than even a high quality fixed ND filter... Anyway, appreciate your confirmation that generally, diffraction is not a problem with the kit lens.
 
Nirv said:
Yeah, those Heliopans are fearsomely expensive. I bought my 67mm secondhand at 1/3 the price of new which was a little easier to swallow.
Click to expand...

Yeah, they are.....BUT! As I have been telling everyone since last year at this time, there is a REASON they cost a lot. Before I bought the FS100, everyone
told me that variable ND's 'suck'. After buying the Heliopan I can say.....'cheap variable ND's suck'. The Heliopan is different from any other variable ND's
that I have seen. They are just something else, that rare piece of gear that is fearsomely expensive.....and still worth every penny.
 
alaskacameradude said:
Yeah, they are.....BUT! As I have been telling everyone since last year at this time, there is a REASON they cost a lot. Before I bought the FS100, everyone
told me that variable ND's 'suck'. After buying the Heliopan I can say.....'cheap variable ND's suck'. The Heliopan is different from any other variable ND's
that I have seen. They are just something else, that rare piece of gear that is fearsomely expensive.....and still worth every penny.
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree with you more.

The Heliopans are the only ND Faders that deserve to use the term "neutral" in their description. I was ready to ditch ND Faders, the Genus I have changes the WB dramatically and blurs the image from 85mm focal length onwards, whereas the Heliopan is crystal sharp at any focal length. The Genus filter deadens the sky and takes the life out of the image which was more of an issue than the blurring at longer focal lengths.

Unless you've used them you really don't know how good they are and if they're worth the premium. So many camera accessories like lens adapters have huge variations in price for zero benefit over more affordable solutions. I think that's what put me off, the MTF adapters effect!

I'd recommend the Heliopans to anyone who'll listen now.
 
I also am a great fan of the Heliopan vario-ND. I'm using it on my Canon FD lenses with step-up rings and the 3-stage rubber hood; the configuration allows to use those lenses wide open even in full sunshine...

However, using it on the kit 18-200mm lens (or the 16mm "pancake") has been problematic, as the 3-stage rubber hood is vignetting on these lenses - and an expensive filter, protruding in the front on its 77mm step-up ring, needs some protection...

But I have found another 77mm rubber hood - the Marumi wide-angle hood like this here:

http://www.stopfoto.pl/Marumi-Oslona-gumowa-szerokokatna-77-mm(4,8941,7764).aspx (sorry - it's in Polish only).

With a step-up ring, it works perfectly on both Sony lenses (the 18-200 as well as the 16mm pancake); I can now put my Heliopan vario-ND on them and the hood gives some basic protection (both optical and mechanical).

It's a pity though that - once the 0.75% wide converter is applied on the pancake lens - there is no ND option whatsoever; the adapter has its petal hood fixed permanently, and there is no room for a fixed 49mm ND filter in-between the lens and adapter :(
 
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