Which 4X4 filters???

Rick Meyer

Rick Meyer

Veteran
Hey gang-

I did a search and did not find a thread with exactly what I was looking for. I am about to purchase a mattebox and will eventually need 4X4 filters. I am looking at a used set (with 7 different filters for hundreds less than what they retailed for). The savings cannot be denied. But, if I will never use them, I'm thinking I can spend half of that and get the 2 or 3 that I will really need.

I was just interested in the filters that many of you pull out on a regular or at least semi-regular basis so I can figure out what filters I will want to start out with?

Thanks guys and gals-
Rick
 
please, anybody?

I'm just trying to either make a great buy or head a dumb and unnecessary purchase off at the pass.
 
Well, what filters are in the set????

I break filters down into two categories, those which help to control light and therefore the image, and those used for creative purposes. For the control side, you're gonna want a set of ND filters, no doubt. You're going to want a good polarizer. After that you can look into some ND grads.

Past that you're looking more at creative uses. Colored filters, diffusion, etc. That's all very subjective and much of that can be done in post these days. But the control filters are essential in my opinion. Others may see things differently.

matt
 
MattC said:
Well, what filters are in the set???? matt
Click to expand...


There are 7 4X4 filters. Schnieder: one black frost #2, one warm black frost#1, one grad paradise blue 3 soft edge, one 85 circular true-poloraizer, one warm classic soft 1.

Tiffen: one double fog 2, one warm black pro-mist 1/4.

What do you think?
 
I think thre are a lot of not worth it filters in that kit.

I usually don't do any color filters with video, because you can get much better results doing them in post. And diffusion filters are cool, but for my taste I think they look a little too much soap opera like, especially in video.

So my idea of a full 7 filter kit would be:

-Polarizer (without the 85 combined)
-Set of NDs (0.3, 0.6 and 0.9)
-Set of Grad NDs, soft edge (0.3, 0.6 and 0.9)

-Some people swear by using an 85 filter for shooting daylight lit scenes with their white balance in tingsten, to reduce noise. I never tried this, but it is something else to consider getting.

Of course this would be a nice set to have, but instead of spending all that money at once you could start with much less, as you said, 2 or 3. So I would advise getting a polarizer first and foremost (the schneider is great) and a grad ND6 or 9 soft edge (no need to use hard edges with 1/3" CCD video) for cutting off some of the sky excessive brightness in those open estabilishing shots (some people are freaks for blue skyes, I can take a blown out sky here and there, but there is no argue that for those great looking landscape shot, blue skyes work better). The third I'd get would be a ND6, so you get better control of DOF shooting always wide open with your DVX, even in well lit situations. Next, I'd try and see what I was missing and complete the ND and Grad ND sets, one piece at a time.

If you notice, all the filters are used to control exposure and exposure balance in the frames. The goal is to get you images that are nicely exposed and balanced even than neutral in color. That way you will have more data to work in post. You can always add a paradise blue gradient on top of your image in your NLE...

The good thing about buying stuff one piece at a time is that you will use everything, you will get used to everything, you will take the time to know everything you have. I doubt it you will use a lot fo your 7 new filters if you buy them as a kit like that...
 
great advice taubkin. I will come back to your post when I am ready to plunk down money. (I opted to NOT get the 7 filters).

Thanks again.

Rick
 
taubkin said:
So my idea of a full 7 filter kit would be:
-Polarizer (without the 85 combined)
-Set of NDs (0.3, 0.6 and 0.9)
-Set of Grad NDs, soft edge (0.3, 0.6 and 0.9)

-Some people swear by using an 85 filter for shooting daylight lit scenes with their white balance in tingsten, to reduce noise. I never tried this, but it is something else to consider getting.
Click to expand...

Okay. I am VERY close to getting a matte box. I need direction. I want filters. I want to buy good glass so I won't be able to buy a whole kit (unless its really reasonable or used) so I plan to begin with one piece of glass at a time. I am pretty much planning on following Taubkin's suggestions, in that order. To me, Polarizer is first.

Rush-
I went to Evs to check out what you have. Your website is VERY confusing when it comes to listing filters. You have to click onto each link to get a description of what they do. It took me 20 minutes to find a polarizer. Unless I am missing an easier way....and there are SOOOO many different types of polarizers.

So polarizing filter suggestion guys? I'm thinking Schneider is the way to go....
Please advise me guys and gals...
Rick
 
MattC said:
You can't go wrong with Schneider glass. I have one of their polarizers and love it.
Click to expand...


Matt-

Any particular polarizer (besides Schneider)? I was at the EVS site and noticed that Schneider has many different 4X4 polarizers. It left me kinda confused.

Rick

EDIT: Or, any particular 3 piece kits that anyone could recommend?
 
Hi rlm, here is the 3pc kit you were thinking about:
http://www.evsonline.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=DS44KI00

It is a very good kit, considering that you are getting the 1/2 soft free if you tally the cost of the two other filters. That includes a circular pol, which you don't really need, you can get a linear for $159.95, but the ND is higher quality than the built-in ND on most cameras. The kit is a really good price.

We have alse been getting excellent feedback on the Formatt filters, especially considering the HD Circular Pol is currently $169.95, $50 cheaper than the Schneider. They have the metal rim to protect the glass, are water-white, and each come wrapped in their own silicone cloth. The ND grads, which are the second most critical filter after the pol, are $164.95. The schneiders are bit softer on the grad horizon, formatts a bit harder, but they both work very well. I went and shot a bunch of footage for a customer of mine in Australia, before I sent her some Formatt filters. I watched the footage on a hi-res production monitor with 4 other people, and everybody loved both the Schneiders and Formatts, bearing in mind some subtle differences. I just didn't want to send anything brand new to Australia that I hadn't tested before. I have the footage if anyone wants to come to EVS to see it, with both polarizers and all levels of ND grad. :)
 
Thanks Rush for the in depth info. I will have to get back to evs and take a look at the Formatt filters as well.

Now excuse the possibly dumb question but by "Circular True-Pol" does this mean the filter is not a 4X4 that fits inside a matte box slot but rather screws onto the 72mm thread of the camera? And you mentioned that I wouldn't need it. Why is that?

This of course goes to Rush OR anyone with filter knowledge...

Rick

EDIT: Okay, I understand that "circular" and "linear" do not refer to shape. I understand that you can get a 4X4 circular polarizer. However, in terms of their performance, I still can't recognize the difference. Also, I'm still not sure why you suggested that I would not need it.
 
taubkin said:
So my idea of a full 7 filter kit would be:

-Polarizer (without the 85 combined)
-Set of NDs (0.3, 0.6 and 0.9)
-Set of Grad NDs, soft edge (0.3, 0.6 and 0.9)
Click to expand...
I am in TOTAL and PRECISE agreement with Taubkin here! A full range of NDs and ND grads are what you'll use most. FORGET about ProMists and fog filters--you lose too much resolution and color information in an already low-bandwidth camera.
 
OKay...so the plot of confusion thickens....

I was just playing around with my Hoya Circular 72mm thread polarizer. Now for some reason, I just don't think this filter is doing exactly what I want a polarizer to do. For starters (though I know Hoya is considered a good brand) it was cheap. I bought it off of EBAY. It was a green box (from the Philippines) not a Blue box (from Japan). I have NO idea what the distinction is of either. What I do know is that its effects are VERY undramatic. I don't get a very noticeable saturation in the sky. It doesn't really reduce the glare off of water that much and looks more like putting a pair of tinted sunglasses on the camera or putting the ND filter on.

So, please help a brother out. (my girlfriend has given me a 12pm deadline today for my Christmas list...I want a good filter to be on it). Does this filter seem to be doing what it's supposed to? Also, wouldn't I rather get a 4X4 polarizer that fits right into the matte box I will soon be getting? What is a tru-polarizer?

Please advise....the Christmas list deadline countdown begins....3hrs22minutes....tick tock tick tock...

Rick
 
I have a cheap 72mm polarizer (also a Hoya, I think) that I never use because of what you are describing. The effects are quite mild. Better glass will get you better effects, and with the polarizer this is especially true, but beware. Don't set your expectations too high, though, because even the best polarizers out there won't behave like in their brochure pictures...

To make the most out of your polarizer, there are tons of tricks, and there is people here that can give you much better advice, but if I'm not totally wrong, for the sky, the effect is much higher when you are shooting south or north (90 deg from the sun direction), and for glare, it really depends on the reflective material and type of light hitting it.
 
Cool. Thats good info to know. And thank you for confirming what I was already thinking: that this Hoya filter is nearly useless.
 
Rick,

You may want to check out the Zhang polorizer. It has a round filter in a 4x4 holder so that you can dial in the pola without have to rotate the filter holder in the mattebox. Much quicker and easier to do on the fly. I love mine.

I got it from Stan Wallace at the Filter Gallery in NY. You can call him at 212-631-9177 as he is an excellent resource for matteboxes and filters. He carrys all the major and lessor brands.
 
But if you have a rotating filter holder what is the point? The mattebox does the job for you. Century used to make those but they suspended production on them because they could never get the turn gear to mesh with the glass for very long. The turn gear would always rub off and then free-spin. :embarasse
 
rlm, circular pol works on film, still, and video cams, with no effect on color or auto-focus. I have never used linears, but they are said to sometimes have negative effects on those two aspects. However they are cheaper. That is why I said you don't need the circular, you could get the linear. I usually advise the circulars though, and we sell those 10:1 to the Linears by customer choice. Here is more info:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=1708

Taubkin definitely has the right thing going, that is a perfect list of filters.

Circular pols have an extremely dramatic effect mostly on reflections. At just about any light angle I can dial out glare from part of a car windshield to show the occupants. It is most dramatic at perpendicular to the sun, as everyone mentioned, and it will definitely separate sky from clouds (sky gets darker and more saturated).
 
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