Where's the real money at?

D

dunzo

New member
Hey insiders,

Now's your chance to impart some wisdom. I live in the Toronto-area and looking to make a move into unionized work, I have all my ducks in a row in terms of getting the hours and recommendations to apply but I want to make the best move in terms of income and what matches up with my long-term goals. I'm hoping to eventually become a writer and filmmaker, but on my own time at my own pace. Before that, I want to get into a union and make some real dough. Now, for awhile I was looking into the cinematographer's guild but once you complete permitee status and become a member you're 100% freelance. I don't see that being very lucrative, as in almost all professions freelance starts off very slow and takes a lot of time and dedication to become anything worth while. I've heard there's money in DMTs who work with RED cameras as they are becoming more and more popular (and cheaper) and people are needed to work with them. Next would be the DGC working as an AD, I figure this would make more sense if I actually want to become a director some day but it certainly isn't a yellow brick road. I know there's money in labour work like gaffers and grips, but that isn't where I see myself going and there's very little room to bridge to a creative role if I go there.

Any/all suggestions appreciated.

Thanks.
 
" as in almost all professions freelance starts off very slow and takes a lot of time and dedication to become anything worth while"

There you go.
 
That you ask "where's the real money at" shows immaturity, and that you aren't willing to work your way up. The REAL money comes from years of hard work and dedication, working your way up in the industry, showing that you have innovative ideas and the talent and skill to make them happen.

That you dismiss freelance work because it "starts off slow and takes a lot of time and dedication to become anything worthwhile" is ignorant at best. ANYthing, freelance or not, will require that kind of personal investment in order to succeed.

That you're trying to choose which area you want to work based on income goes back to my first statement. What do you like doing, and what do you have the skill to do? Are you good with lights? Behind a camera? With sound? Do you have mad writing skills? You need to answer that, and choose your career path based on that alone. If you choose to enter any one department just because you think that's the one that pays, you will never make it.

Yes, a good DIT will be well-paid and is worth his/her weight in gold. But to get there takes years of practice and experience. It's more than just data wrangling. A DIT has his/her own cart not only for data management but for critical monitoring of every shot. A DIT knows each camera, inside and out, and how to adjust the picture profiles to get any image desired (and it's more than RED... Alexa, Sony FS, Canon EOS C-series...). A DIT knows how to read scopes like the back of his/her hand.

Also, there's plenty of creativity in being a grip/gaffer. Many of the grips and gaffers with whom I've worked over the years - the good ones, to be exact - are some of the most ingenuitive and creative people around. They know how to get lighting textures that I'd never thought of. They know how to rig all sorts of gear in ways that the instruction manuals don't include.

But again, to stroll in and ask, essentially, "So how do I start gettin' rich right now?" That's foolish.

So, where's the money at? Anywhere else...

If you want to learn and hone your craft, this is a great forum to get advice. On the other hand, if you just want to magic formula for getting a big paycheck, you'll be better off playing the lottery.
 
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Where's the real money at? Rentals. You can only work one set at a time, but your gear can be on as many jobs as you can manage.
 
Alex H. said:
That you ask "where's the real money at" shows immaturity, and that you aren't willing to work your way up. The REAL money comes from years of hard work and dedication, working your way up in the industry, showing that you have innovative ideas and the talent and skill to make them happen.

That you dismiss freelance work because it "starts off slow and takes a lot of time and dedication to become anything worthwhile" is ignorant at best. ANYthing, freelance or not, will require that kind of personal investment in order to succeed.

That you're trying to choose which area you want to work based on income goes back to my first statement. What do you like doing, and what do you have the skill to do? Are you good with lights? Behind a camera? With sound? Do you have mad writing skills? You need to answer that, and choose your career path based on that alone. If you choose to enter any one department just because you think that's the one that pays, you will never make it.

Yes, a good DIT will be well-paid and is worth his/her weight in gold. But to get there takes years of practice and experience. It's more than just data wrangling. A DIT has his/her own cart not only for data management but for critical monitoring of every shot. A DIT knows each camera, inside and out, and how to adjust the picture profiles to get any image desired (and it's more than RED... Alexa, Sony FS, Canon EOS C-series...). A DIT knows how to read scopes like the back of his/her hand.

Also, there's plenty of creativity in being a grip/gaffer. Many of the grips and gaffers with whom I've worked over the years - the good ones, to be exact - are some of the most ingenuitive and creative people around. They know how to get lighting textures that I'd never thought of. They know how to rig all sorts of gear in ways that the instruction manuals don't include.

But again, to stroll in and ask, essentially, "So how do I start gettin' rich right now?" That's foolish.

So, where's the money at? Anywhere else...

If you want to learn and hone your craft, this is a great forum to get advice. On the other hand, if you just want to magic formula for getting a big paycheck, you'll be better off playing the lottery.
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If I'm asking an immature question then you're giving an equally immature response. I never said I want to get rich, or that I want to get rich now. People spend years of time, energy and personal cost going freelance and wind up collecting unemployment cheques simply because the demand isn't there. I wouldn't expect someone in Tennessee to know anything about the market in Toronto so if you don't know then keep the BS to a minimum. I'm asking where the money is, period. Whether it's something lucrative a year from now or five years from now, that's what I'm asking. Assuming right out of the gate that I am not willing to work hard is presumptive and frankly insulting. Not asking for insider advice is extremely stupid in my opinion when there's people with real world experience who can tell you "don't go down that path, try this path instead" which is valuable in making educated decisions. If that's immature to you then I don't know what to say.
 
dunzo said:
If I'm asking an immature question then you're giving an equally immature response. I never said I want to get rich, or that I want to get rich now. People spend years of time, energy and personal cost going freelance and wind up collecting unemployment cheques simply because the demand isn't there. I wouldn't expect someone in Tennessee to know anything about the market in Toronto so if you don't know then keep the BS to a minimum. I'm asking where the money is, period. Whether it's something lucrative a year from now or five years from now, that's what I'm asking. Assuming right out of the gate that I am not willing to work hard is presumptive and frankly insulting. Not asking for insider advice is extremely stupid in my opinion when there's people with real world experience who can tell you "don't go down that path, try this path instead" which is valuable in making educated decisions. If that's immature to you then I don't know what to say.
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Easy now. Alex is someone who's been the game for quite a while, so he knows a bit about what he's talking about. He's one of the "insiders" you're seeking advice from.

What he says applies everywhere. The fact that he's in TN and not in Toronto is irrelevant.
 
The money is in the relationships you nurture and the jobs and deals that come from those personal investments (all things being equal and assuming you're good at what you intend to do, etc). This is, also, the great joy of the whole thing.
 
dunzo, most of the responses have been pretty spot-on. You wanted "any and all" insights. You've gotten some gold. If it isn't what you wanted to hear, you might think about why.
 
dunzo said:
Any/all suggestions appreciated.
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Decide what you want to do and go for it regardless of how long it takes or how lucrative it is/is not. There is no "yellow brick road", there is no sure fire way to make "real dough" (you'll always feel like you are being over worked and underpaid) and freelance work is pretty much inherent to the movie/tv industry.

There are no short cuts and you can't be afraid of having your world blow up in your face as this is not a line of work for the risk averse. Lastly, get comfortable with the fact that it's a lifestyle, not a job.
 
I'm hoping to eventually become a writer and filmmaker, but on my own time at my own pace. Before that, I want to get into a union and make some real dough.
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If your ambition is to write and make films, better be writing and making films. If your own time and your own pace is not right f'ing now, putting together at least basic simple projects with what resources you can muster, building your skill set and defining your voice, when -will- the time be right? Don't answer me, it's none of my business. But - if you haven't - at least ask -yourself.-

If you aren't interested in a union career in one or another of the production trades - if it's just a stepping stone to making some $$$ - there are other ways to make $$$. Generally speaking, by the time you have the experience, credits and network to make -really- good money working in production you will have made a sufficient investment of time, effort and $$$ that chucking it to pursue writing and directing may not seem like so easy a choice as it does now. With increased income has a way of coming increased expenses. A very common trap is getting nice and comfortably situated in what was -going- to be a temporary or transitional career...and then finding that risk-taking has somehow become very un-appealing.

as in almost all professions freelance starts off very slow and takes a lot of time and dedication to become anything worth while.
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This is not only true of freelancing. It will take time and dedication for you to develop into a professional whom high-end producers will see as a worthwhile hire. Whether you take that time as a freelancer or as an W-2'd (or Canadian equivalent) employee isn't of much relevance, to that.

Next would be the DGC working as an AD, I figure this would make more sense if I actually want to become a director some day but it certainly isn't a yellow brick road.
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Perhaps the DGC programs function differently, but at least so far as the DGA and the US industry go, Assistant Director is not a step toward Director, it's a step toward UPM. And who the Hell wants to do -that?-

I know there's money in labour work like gaffers and grips, but that isn't where I see myself going and there's very little room to bridge to a creative role if I go there.
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Gaffers and Grips are production professionals with definite skill sets. Laborers are laborers. Don't call gaffers or grips 'laborers' unless you're anxious for a story about that time you got punched by a gaffer or a grip.

And if your creative output has merit, starting from Grip or Gaffer won't do you any harm. You'll be well-informed as to how a set's run, that's for sure.

 
Alex H. said:
That you ask "where's the real money at" shows immaturity, and that you aren't willing to work your way up. The REAL money comes from years of hard work and dedication, working your way up in the industry, showing that you have innovative ideas and the talent and skill to make them happen.

That you dismiss freelance work because it "starts off slow and takes a lot of time and dedication to become anything worthwhile" is ignorant at best. ANYthing, freelance or not, will require that kind of personal investment in order to succeed.

That you're trying to choose which area you want to work based on income goes back to my first statement. What do you like doing, and what do you have the skill to do? Are you good with lights? Behind a camera? With sound? Do you have mad writing skills? You need to answer that, and choose your career path based on that alone. If you choose to enter any one department just because you think that's the one that pays, you will never make it.

Yes, a good DIT will be well-paid and is worth his/her weight in gold. But to get there takes years of practice and experience. It's more than just data wrangling. A DIT has his/her own cart not only for data management but for critical monitoring of every shot. A DIT knows each camera, inside and out, and how to adjust the picture profiles to get any image desired (and it's more than RED... Alexa, Sony FS, Canon EOS C-series...). A DIT knows how to read scopes like the back of his/her hand.

Also, there's plenty of creativity in being a grip/gaffer. Many of the grips and gaffers with whom I've worked over the years - the good ones, to be exact - are some of the most ingenuitive and creative people around. They know how to get lighting textures that I'd never thought of. They know how to rig all sorts of gear in ways that the instruction manuals don't include.

But again, to stroll in and ask, essentially, "So how do I start gettin' rich right now?" That's foolish.

So, where's the money at? Anywhere else...

If you want to learn and hone your craft, this is a great forum to get advice. On the other hand, if you just want to magic formula for getting a big paycheck, you'll be better off playing the lottery.
Click to expand...

Such a response begs the question, why is there no "Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No" in the Cafe?

Well said, Alex.
 
Knoxville, Tennessee, has held rank as the third largest producer of cable television network programming in the nation, behind New York and Los Angeles. So, there's that.

The stark reality is that there is no magic answer to your original question. It does not matter which department: camera, grip and electric, sound, props, makeup and wardrobe... the ones who are good at what they do, passionate and driven, and know how to work as part of a team are the ones who will get the work. If there's a production community, demand will sustain some but not all. The other part of this reality is that it is competitive and often cut-throat.

Freelance can be lucrative, but it will be a full-time job to make it that way. As they say, it's good work... if you can get it. But full-time employment in a production studio is a rare beast, relatively speaking. Freelance is probably the more likely scenario.

Now, the rather flip nature of your initial post may have been unintentional, but it conveys a very misplaced priority, and there are several comments in there that come across as wanting to fast-track into a decent paycheck, moving quickly (or immediately) beyond entry-level. You are going to have to start at the bottom. Period. And you might even need to find steady employment somewhere else at the beginning, just to keep the bills paid and food in the fridge while you build up enough of a resumé to get steady and reliable production work.

Further, it's always good to have a plan B, something on which to fall back, because not everyone makes it in this industry.
 
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Give the OP a break, anyone in the beginning of their career needs to make a decision as to what direction makes the most sense in perusing (I don't think he was asking for a get rich quick schemes..just something more stable.) We've all been there and it would be foolish not to ask that question. Granted, most people that choose their careers based on profitable industries don't typically go with creative avenues...finance usually makes more sense.
 
Money and professional advancement don't always go hand-in-hand. There have been occasions on which I've accepted a substantial cut in earnings, in order to get into a position that will pay off and much more than make up for it, later. If I chose projects based solely upon the paycheck I wouldn't have an Art Director's card.
 
egproductions said:
Give the OP a break, anyone in the beginning of their career needs to make a decision as to what direction makes the most sense in perusing (I don't think he was asking for a get rich quick schemes..just something more stable.) We've all been there and it would be foolish not to ask that question. Granted, most people that choose their careers based on profitable industries don't typically go with creative avenues...finance usually makes more sense.
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Being young and inexperienced is all the more reason not to get sarcastic and indignant when specifically asking more experienced people for advice.
 
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