Where's the New Panasonic Large Sensor Camera?

Barry_Green said:
... there's the FS100, which is offered for one dollar below $5,000, but I don't really consider it a professional video camera as much as I think of it as an inflated DSLR
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If you're looking at it from a form factor and functionality perspective then maybe yes, but if you look at it from IQ perspective then, no.
AF101 is in it's essence an inflated DSLR. It's got the same sensors as a DSLR, so it's basically a camera built around a DSLR. Where as
the FS100 is basically just the "brain" and needs further rig components to make it usable. Calling the FS100 an inflated DSLR is like calling the
Scarlet camera an inflated DSLR. But they aren't. They are just cameras that aren't REALLY meant to function without some sort of a rig added to them...

AF101 is an inflated DSLR. It's even targeted at the DSLR crowd. What we want is an proper S35 or m4/3 (for that matter) camera from Panny.
I'm still hanging to my old HPX171 and all it's P2 cards to use with a new large sensor camera from Panny. For people like us that want to upgrade
to a large sensor camera Panny really hasn't made any choices (yet?).
 
In my opinion the AF100 upgrade just happened, in the form of the new Lumix 12-35 and 35-100 m4/3 lenses. I ordered my camera the day it was announced and I finally feel like it's now the system it was intended to be all along. Personally I plan on running this camera into the ground. Unbeatable in the price range and my clients love it. Personally I think the smart investment is support gear, lighting and glass. Camera technology is changing too fast to be profitable the last 2 years.
 
KINOKS said:
If you're looking at it from a form factor and functionality perspective then maybe yes, but if you look at it from IQ perspective then, no.
AF101 is in it's essence an inflated DSLR. It's got the same sensors as a DSLR, so it's basically a camera built around a DSLR. Where as
the FS100 is basically just the "brain" and needs further rig components to make it usable. Calling the FS100 an inflated DSLR is like calling the
Scarlet camera an inflated DSLR. But they aren't. They are just cameras that aren't REALLY meant to function without some sort of a rig added to them...

AF101 is an inflated DSLR. It's even targeted at the DSLR crowd. What we want is an proper S35 or m4/3 (for that matter) camera from Panny.
I'm still hanging to my old HPX171 and all it's P2 cards to use with a new large sensor camera from Panny. For people like us that want to upgrade
to a large sensor camera Panny really hasn't made any choices (yet?).
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Perhaps I shouldn't, but I'll bite on this one. Ultimately I think it's an argument over semantics, but still I would argue that the FS100 is much more clearly targeted toward the DSLR crowd than the AF100. The fact that most DSLR guys I know treat their 5D (or whatever) very much like just a "brain" by kitting it out like they do tells me that, and the FS100 was built to feed that same mentality. Of course, you could take this viewpoint into the realm of the absurd and say that the Scarlet targets the DSLR crowd as well (and in some ways I believe it does), but at some point you have to make a delineation based on price.

On the other hand, the AF100 is a camera for shooters (like myself) who hate the frankenrig nature of DSLRs and want something that just works in a variety of situations with no for extraneous and cumbersome add-ons (though we can add them if we like). It's not perfect by any means (few pioneering devices are), and I'll agree with you that the IQ on the FS is superior, and it's easier to make it look good out of the box (another quality DSLR shooters value), but I've found the AF to be much more versatile in the types of looks the in-camera settings are able to achieve with adjustments (something most DSLR guys I know don't feel like messing with).

I'm not saying that the AF is superior to the FS (or vice-versa). It's just that I think saying that the former is more targeted toward the DSLR market than the latter is rather inaccurate. Like I said before, I think this is mainly a discussion of semantics, but sadly semantics influence people's opinions. Regardless, shoot with what you like, and happy shooting! :)

- Jon
 
KINOKS said:
If you're looking at it from a form factor and functionality perspective then maybe yes, but if you look at it from IQ perspective then, no.
AF101 is in it's essence an inflated DSLR. It's got the same sensors as a DSLR, so it's basically a camera built around a DSLR. ...
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No, it doesn't have the same sensor as a DSLR. We've been told that many, many, many times. So it has to be true.
 
I agree with Barry on the last statement, that I too would rather see Panasonic offer something in the price range of its current AF100. If anything, very simply, an oversized Panasonic M4/3 sensor upgrade (Not whatever the other division put in the GH3) with a good twelve measure of DR, solid lowlight capability, and a RAW output option.

You could keep everything the same about the AF100, there's nothing wrong with the form factor, features, etc. if that's possible from an engineering standpoint. Wouldn't need, want, or ask for anything else.

THe F5 and F55 look like they will be the first solid Sony cameras for my tastes, but they aren't owner op for me.

Blackmagic? Yeah, I'm owning that. Despite the aliasing, missing goodies... man once you actually shoot something with it it's hard to want to mess with anything under the 25-30K bracket (if you're a narrative/commercial feller, maybe not the same case for video events and docs.)

Panasonic can match this, they have everything they need to do it.
 
An updated MFT sensor that is at par with the BMCC or better would be great and a redesign of the viewfinder thats more like the F5 and I would be a happy camper.
Ditch the side LCD screen and make it a flip up EVF with punch in focus assist. Heck that might be cheaper to manufacture than having both viewfinder and LCD.
 
Perhaps as someone elswhere has stated Sony have at last cottoned on that the "brick" form factor with the EVF exactly where you don't want it is over. I can never understand why cameras always have something missing that is so obvious. An AF200 as Erik suggests would surely mop up in its market/price sector.
 
I'm about to purchase the new Lumix Vario 35-100 for my AF-100 / GH2 combo. I would be a little disappointed if panasonic left the AF behind and decided to go s35. The 35-100 cost $1499.
The other half of the camera is the lenses, and now with the two new Lumix Vario's we have a great range from 7mm to 100mm (14-200 in full frame terms) with three zoom lenses. And two are FAST! Also the lenses are sharp, work native and are very light. Plus OIS on the two new ones. Thats a huge plus.

So Panasonic didn't come out with a new camera this week. But they are advancing with MFT lenses that are breathing new life to my AF-100. I don't think these new lenses were designed only for the GH3.
 
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Yep Erik, I have a 35-100/2.8 on rental for next week... test-driving, if you will, the last missing element to a very complete, single small shoulder-bag doc lens kit.

Screw S35.
 
I had a play at the C100 at PDN in New York and one thing I noticed was how much using m43 sensor is really a nice sweet spot on all ends. Easier to focus with and you can easily get good shallow depth of field when needed. I'd expect the new AF to stay M43 this time with a Sony sensor :P
 
mcbob said:
Yep Erik, I have a 35-100/2.8 on rental for next week... test-driving, if you will, the last missing element to a very complete, single small shoulder-bag doc lens kit.

Screw S35.
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LOL!

I have to admit it that new Sony F has me a little F'ed-up! But then I don't have a cool $15K + to play with so screw it! Buy more glass! HAHA!
 
Barry_Green said:
AF100's $3350 brand new (after rebate) right now.
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Unfortunately this is for the US only I guess. Across Europe, the FS100 is around 100€ cheaper than the Pana...

I still bet on two cameras at NAB13: A classic "letter update" for the AF100 fixing some of its shortcoming and an AF500 (to stick with a famous Panasonic number) - but what´s in the later box remains the question.
If they stick with 4/3 they better should buy where BMD went shopping...
 
KINOKS said:
Not distinguishing between a film shot on a HPX171 using a DOF adaptor and a film shot on a Scarlet or Epic... I don't know... Seems like something I could do if you woke me up in the middle of the night. HPX171 and a DOF adaptor is a very specific look. Can't miss it (well, at least, that's my opinion).
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All things being equal, of course -- you could spot the difference even with your eyes closed.....or almost, anyway. But if you put a basic system in the hands of a master, and an advanced system in the hands of someone who is still developing their skills, not all things are equal. Not only will the emerging DP not get his lighting/exposure/framing/etc quite right, but the entire workflow of the developing team will have issues as well. Color timing, encoding, and a long list of other factors will sneak into the mix to make it a little tricky to tell who shot with what. In the end, of course, the only thing that really matters (to me, anyway) is whether I enjoyed watching the project. In the case of the 171 and the lens adapter, the overall project was so perfect that I was in love. Some of our judges even got goose bumps at the end, which I thought was poetic -- in the end, (pardon the pun) it really doesn't matter what you shoot with, it's how the audience reacts to your work.
 
Crazy how many cameras have been announced since the AF100 release. I love the features of my AF100 but I don't think the image is anywhere near as cinematic and magical as the Canon DSLRs, C-series or even the Sony cams.

If they could improve the sensor and add additional overcranking frame rates, I'd gladly upgrade. I like the camera a lot but often pine for a nicer image.

Realistically, is NAB the absolute soonest we could expect to see a successor?
 
Erik Naso said:
An updated MFT sensor that is at par with the BMCC or better would be great and a redesign of the viewfinder thats more like the F5 and I would be a happy camper.
Ditch the side LCD screen and make it a flip up EVF with punch in focus assist. Heck that might be cheaper to manufacture than having both viewfinder and LCD.
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+1 to that.. Fully leverage the smaller form factor afforded by MFT. Rethink the layout as per Erik. Keep the price under $5k and Bob's your uncle.
 
Gary Huff said:
Oh yes, I just go nuts over all that lovely yellow/green skin tones of the Canon!
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I'm not sure what your point is. To my eye the Canon looks better. I have used both cameras extensively. I have shot over 30 nationally broadcast TV commercials with the Canon and the skin tones can be color corrected to look as nice or better than most cameras out there.

Also, I know and work with 4 other AF100 owner/operators regularly and none of them are enamored with the AF100 image.

I've made good money off the camera. It's been great for business but I would love a nicer image quality.
 
Barry_Green said:
But ... right now, Panasonic's the ONLY player in the sub-$5k market! Nobody else is even competing with them for that market -- meaning, a professional video camera with a large sensor. I mean, yes technically there's the FS100, which is offered for one dollar below $5,000, but I don't really consider it a professional video camera as much as I think of it as an inflated DSLR, but even so, it's still about 40% more expensive than the AF100. AF100's $3350 brand new (after rebate) right now.

The BMC will be some measure of competition when it's actually released, but even then, only for a narrow subset of the market as it's strictly oriented towards cinema shooters and doesn't offer things like XLRs, variable frame rates, ND filters, pre-record, timecode sync, and other traditional pro video camera offerings. Note: I'm not saying one is "better" than another, I'm saying that one doesn't offer the features the other one does for specific purposes, such as shooting 720/60p or 1080i, which are things that pro video cameras typically offer, and therefore I don't consider them in direct competition with each other.

Does the AF100 need an update? Sure, it'd be nice to get one. But seriously, they really are the only camera catering to the low-budget pro right now. The other companies are all fighting it out over the $9,000 to $35,000 segment, and Panasonic's offering is pretty much unmatched at the $3400 price point. Should they expend their engineering and resources trying to grapple for the $15,000 price point against the Scarlet, F3, F5, and C300? There's already four capable cameras at that price point. I'd much rather see them expend their efforts improving the products aimed at the real indie price bracket, the $3500 price point, which is basically the DVX100 price point.
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Look, I get it. You are a Panasonic guy. But this is a bit silly to make definitive statements like
this when you are factually just wrong. The Sony FS 100 has had an $800 immediate rebate on
it for quite some time (I'm thinking at least 3 months.....I seem to recall it being around the time
the FS700 started shipping in large quantities.) What this means is no rebate forms to fill out and
mail in, just an immediate $800 taken off the price. Check out this link:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/761578-REG/Sony_NEX_FS100U_NEX_FS100E_Super_35mm_Sensor.html

So let's be totally honest here. The FS 100 is not a dollar under 5 grand and hasn't been
for quite some time. Not to take anything away fram the AF 100, it's sweet and it has some
really nice features (my biggest.......ok really my only......real complaint with my FS 100 is no
built in NDs!). So the AF 100 is fine but lets not defend it by spreading false info on the FS100.

And you may not believe it but Panasonic DOES have direct competition in the under
5k big sensor pro video cam market. Two of my consulting clients have decided to
go with FS100 buys over AF100 in the past month. I've said it before, the AF 100 has some
advantages over the FS100 but the FS100 is better than the AF100 in places as well.
I realize this may be akin to sticking my head in a lions mouth to say this on the
AF 100 forum so I'll just say read through Adam Wilts article where he spells it out
better than I.

http://provideocoalition.com/index....ony_nex-fs100_super35_lss_avchd_camcorder/P3/

ONLY player in the big sensor under 5k market? I beg to differ, I guess we will
just have to agree to disagree on that one :)
 
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traviswears said:
I'm not sure what your point is. To my eye the Canon looks better.
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I have the 60D as well, and I never use it unless a client requests it or I have to match it with another Canon. After having shot with other cameras, I really hate the way those first generation DSLRs look now. The most typical example is that people commonly have yellow/greenish tints to their skin tone if you don't white balance the shots, which many of those claiming Canon has better color or some "magical" image mojo can't ever seem to avoid.
 
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