where have the filmmakers gone?
- Thread starter ugafan
- Start date
DPStewart
Veteran
Films are a very small portion of the types of videos that get made.
And of those - documentaries outnumber the narrative stuff by far.
Now that anyone and everyone can easily afford a camera that can shoot "films"....anyone and everyone has found out that in reality "films" are incredibly difficult to make.
And of those - documentaries outnumber the narrative stuff by far.
Now that anyone and everyone can easily afford a camera that can shoot "films"....anyone and everyone has found out that in reality "films" are incredibly difficult to make.
combatentropy
Veteran
Yes, it seems that way. I remember a few months ago that even Barry Green said that test videos have replaced indie films as the general output of the videomaking populace. I was thinking it was just me, because I used to be really into filmmaking, then burned out, for various reasons that I won't go into at this time. Now all I can do is make remarks from the sidelines. Since it happened as a general trend at about the same time, maybe it's something in the air.
But what about the newbies? Are you telling me that few people join DVXUser anymore? Maybe you just meant that tongue in cheek. I still see fresh names with low post counts pop up, people introducing themselves, etc. And then they ask how to transcode X into Y using Z editing system.
I know that's true among the portion of videos that make money. But I sort of miss the all the independent films I used to see, even the cheesy ones. I used to see more --- but maybe it's just because I was in school.
But really even as far back as a dozen years ago, when I spoke at a high school video class, they were all too practical, wanting to go into documentaries, the evening news, and such. I said, "Don't any of you want to be the next Steven Spielberg?" Awkward silence.
Last edited:
DPStewart
Veteran
Interesting...
My reply was sort of a joke. . .sort of. I don't know. . .I guarantee there are plenty of noobs wanting to be filmmakers. Why they aren't posting on here. . .who can say? Maybe anything that isn't shooting straight to fame via a youtube channel or similar is lame now, including posting one's work on message boards.
I "burned out" too. My basic reason is that I would spend months or years (in one case) on a short (yes you read right), be all stoked about it, release it to the world. . .and got like 5 responses from people I knew personally and a few views on youtube. Each time that happened it murdered my soul a little more. Yeah, i've been in fests, won a few awards, even got to go to Slamdance with one of mine once. None of that really means anything unless you can make something happen with it. I'm real bad at that. I have found the gratification from doing improv and being a performing musician (my new artistic outlets ) much more fulfilling compared to the effort expended.
I "burned out" too. My basic reason is that I would spend months or years (in one case) on a short (yes you read right), be all stoked about it, release it to the world. . .and got like 5 responses from people I knew personally and a few views on youtube. Each time that happened it murdered my soul a little more. Yeah, i've been in fests, won a few awards, even got to go to Slamdance with one of mine once. None of that really means anything unless you can make something happen with it. I'm real bad at that. I have found the gratification from doing improv and being a performing musician (my new artistic outlets ) much more fulfilling compared to the effort expended.
Curtis Mack
Active member
Well, I have a work in progress right now. It is a very difficult endeavor. What looked like a simple almost home movie is turning in to real work, including getting middle-aged extras to a bar in the afternoon not on a weekend (when the owners make all their money). I spent several weeks thinking about things and finally decided to forgo weddings (clueless clients and no money) and corporate (really boring). Commercials and Web illustrations might be fun to make some money to finance the narratives. There is also the problem of coming up with good ideas. I seem to have the knack for that - implementing them is the trick, and that is the filmmaker's task.
Last edited:
There is no market for short films, except the indie film festival. And the indie film festival is really about the festival producers making money with entry fees and ticket sales, not the indie film makers.
There used to be a market for low budget feature films during the era of Blockbuster, and before the internet took off. That market has been replaced by people watching youtube videos of idiots shooting bottle rockets out of their butts or make up tutorials.
At one time I thought we'd see a lot of indie film makers break through on youtube, but one of the biggest successes is Michelle Phan with her make up tutorials. She now runs a 100 million dollar make up company.
Hollywood Feature film content is cheap. Not cheap to make, but cheap for the end user. A subscription to Xfinity cable, or Netflix, get a DVD out of the Redbox, etc., and you're watching blockbuster movies for a pittance. No many people are going to pay for a low to no budget feature film when they can pay the same price and watch Mad Max a few months after it releases in theaters (some films eve have a simultaneous release now), and the indie film maker can't afford to spend millions of dollars on sets and Hollywood A list actors.
As long as there are cameras someone is going to make a zombie move in their backyard, but these days no one is going to pay to watch it, or at least not enough people to make your money back for what you paid for the camera, let alone sets, props, make up, wardrobe, lunch for the crew, etc., etc.
You can put tons of work into making your short film "cinematic" and get a few thousand hits on youtube if you're lucky. Meanwhile these fools have 100K hits:
There used to be a market for low budget feature films during the era of Blockbuster, and before the internet took off. That market has been replaced by people watching youtube videos of idiots shooting bottle rockets out of their butts or make up tutorials.
At one time I thought we'd see a lot of indie film makers break through on youtube, but one of the biggest successes is Michelle Phan with her make up tutorials. She now runs a 100 million dollar make up company.
Hollywood Feature film content is cheap. Not cheap to make, but cheap for the end user. A subscription to Xfinity cable, or Netflix, get a DVD out of the Redbox, etc., and you're watching blockbuster movies for a pittance. No many people are going to pay for a low to no budget feature film when they can pay the same price and watch Mad Max a few months after it releases in theaters (some films eve have a simultaneous release now), and the indie film maker can't afford to spend millions of dollars on sets and Hollywood A list actors.
As long as there are cameras someone is going to make a zombie move in their backyard, but these days no one is going to pay to watch it, or at least not enough people to make your money back for what you paid for the camera, let alone sets, props, make up, wardrobe, lunch for the crew, etc., etc.
You can put tons of work into making your short film "cinematic" and get a few thousand hits on youtube if you're lucky. Meanwhile these fools have 100K hits:
Stephen Mick
Totally Usable
Let me first say that I am not here as a representative of DVXUser staff. This is just me talking, and asking questions.
Honestly, I appreciate that users like ugafan would start a thread like this. It's important for the future of the site for us to have a better understanding of what you want to see more of, and less of, here at User.
I can certainly attest to the fact that, as cameras and gear have become more accessible, filmmakers have become more scarce. (And to clarify, when I say "filmmakers," I mean people who create narrative or true documentary films.) We've seen the evidence of this first-hand with the Fests. Sure, the latest fest might have lacked some prize announcements and a bit of overall follow-through, but this isn't a new trend. If you look back at the last few year's worth of fests, you'll see fewer and fewer entries, of largely gradually declining quality. Hell, I organized a "SpotFest" over at BMCUser. I think we I pulled together $6,000 worth of prizes for that, and all you had to do was make a 60-second piece. We had eight entries. Eight.
I'd like to know more about why you guys think this is the trend we're seeing. I'd also like to hear what you'd like to see from us as site moderators. Do we need to take the focus away from cameras (as it has come to be) and return the focus to craft and technique? How can we re-connect with the filmmaking soul of DVXUser?
Honestly, I appreciate that users like ugafan would start a thread like this. It's important for the future of the site for us to have a better understanding of what you want to see more of, and less of, here at User.
I can certainly attest to the fact that, as cameras and gear have become more accessible, filmmakers have become more scarce. (And to clarify, when I say "filmmakers," I mean people who create narrative or true documentary films.) We've seen the evidence of this first-hand with the Fests. Sure, the latest fest might have lacked some prize announcements and a bit of overall follow-through, but this isn't a new trend. If you look back at the last few year's worth of fests, you'll see fewer and fewer entries, of largely gradually declining quality. Hell, I organized a "SpotFest" over at BMCUser. I think we I pulled together $6,000 worth of prizes for that, and all you had to do was make a 60-second piece. We had eight entries. Eight.
I'd like to know more about why you guys think this is the trend we're seeing. I'd also like to hear what you'd like to see from us as site moderators. Do we need to take the focus away from cameras (as it has come to be) and return the focus to craft and technique? How can we re-connect with the filmmaking soul of DVXUser?
The number one complaint I see when it comes to low budget indie films from the general public (not indie film makers) has nothing to do with lighting, camera work, camera movement, editing, etc. It is almost always the actors are not engaging.
Or to put it another way, Scarlet Johansen costs a lot more than a Sony F55.
Batutta
Major Contributor
I think as others have mentioned, it's not the website's problem. I think people interested in the craft aren't as in abundance anymore. The democratization of filmmaking tools happened at the same exact time the ease of content distribution occurred. The result was that films became devalued in the marketplace. Just like mp3s decimated the music business, netflix, and torrents, and iTunes and 5 dollar DVD's left studios competing for the same dollars as independents, and that's not a level playing field, as the studios have enormous filmmaking and marketing budgets. So there's not a ton of money at the small independent level. Not that there ever was, but there's even less. Add to that shortening attention spans with youtube videos and vines, the younger generation probably doesn't have the patience for the long toil of making a feature film. Or even a short film. I don't see this trend changing. With VR coming, traditional narrative film is going to get even less attention from consumers in the future.
Going off on a tangent, I know people involved in early VR filmmaking, and it occurred to me there probably won't be as much editing involved in virtual forms of entertainment. The goal is to make a seamless experience. This worried me as I make most of my money editing. But I then realized, the fact that there won't be a lot of cutting in VR actually makes it an inferior information delivery system for telling a story. With editing, you can cram a lot more information into a minute of story than you would with VR, where you're locked into one point of view. An editor can shift point of view multiple times, go from location to location, see a reaction from one person across the room to another in a fraction of a second. I don't think you can get that kind of information density in VR. Alright, tangent over.
Stephen Mick
Totally Usable
Thanks for the feedback, Battuta. You've been here longer than I have, and I place a lot of value on the thoughts you share here.
I think you're certainly on-target commenting on the declining "value" of the short film and no-budget indie feature. And there's no denying that our attention spans have become, for the most part, as short as a hummingbird. But I think there's an even deeper decline going on beneath the surface.
We are no longer interested in telling stories.
I know we all have different goals for our filmmaking endeavors. Some want to write big-budget movies. Others want to craft deeply personal indie shorts. Some want to become cinematographers. Others want to work behind an editing system. What has always tied the various disciplines of filmmaking together has been story, above all else. It starts with an idea, becomes words on a page, is translated into compelling acting, and comes together in the edit. And always, story is (or should be) at the heart of it.
But I'm no longer seeing that kind of focus here at DVXUser. It's about the shot. The grade. The dynamic range. The lens. Where once those things served story, now they have replaced it. And as that happens, as we lose sight of the key elements that bring story to life, we see filmmaking die on the vine. We proclaim it dead, a victim of changing times and changes in the way people consume media.
And I'm not buying that. We live in what many consider the "golden age" of television, creatively. Sure, we see fewer and fewer independent films in the mega-multi-movie-plex, but they've only moved to places like Netflix, Vimeo, and other online platforms. We may have to make more effort to seek them out, but they are being made. Just not by us.
I think the reason for that is that we (collectively as DVXUser) no longer value, or in many cases, even understand story. We'll read thirty pages of posts about a new camera, but can't be troubled to thumb through any of the classic texts about character development and scriptwriting. We focus on whether or not this particular sensor will make getting a particular shot possible, but we don't think about how that shot moves story forward. We obsess about the camera movement possibilities the latest handheld gimbal offers, but not about how camera movement can help us tell a better story.
And I'd say we (the DVXUser leadership) have fed directly into this. A new camera comes out, and our default setting is to create a new sub-forum. The filmmaking and craft forums get pushed further and further down the page so that the eight people who own a particular camera can have a place of their own. The result is less discussion about scriptwriting, directing talent, and cinematography, and more discussions of features, megabits, and color space.
Do I know what the solution is? I wish. I want this to be the site that people look to for truly enlightening and informative filmmaking information. Because that's what it was for me, thanks to people like Barry, Jimerson, Hudson, and users like you, Battuta.
Batutta
Major Contributor
It's funny, because I see most young people coming at filmmaking from this direction first, whereas for me it's been the absolute last thing about filmmaking I've taken it upon myself to study. And mostly out of necessity. I should be embarking on my first feature next year and I'll try to impart whatever creative insights I can beyond just camera stuff.
j1clark@ucsd.edu
Veteran
I for one, have seen a decline... even in craigslist ads for various non-porn type film making. While the ever 'work for recognition' type ads are still to be seen occasionally, it is not like it was a few years ago.
I've also participated in a few meetup groups in my area over the last several years, and in sort of a weird kick in the ass... while I've worked a number of 'other people's projects', when it came to getting support for mine... no one seemed to be available...
What I think happened is that people were initially enthusiastic about the prospects of Making A Film... then after working on a few... seeing the results, were disappointed, and discouraged, and for many people discourage leads to just moving on to something else.
In the groups some of the people seem to have thought they would make the next viral clip on youtube... as noted above, 'butt rocket'... who would have thought boy's basement toilet humor would be even accepted on youtube... the same site that requires pictures as chaste as the Sistine Chapel nudes be put in the 'adult' section...
The other issue for me personally is time... the company I'm working for has been developing a new product over the last several years, and that has taken a lion's share of my time... I did use vacation for working on some otherpeoplesprojects last year, so, while the job does detract from my ability to be available, I can make the time when it counts...
As for test clips... yeah... I may as well use my 'spare' time to make damn sure I understand my camera and can use well if and when I collect enough people to do a project... ok... then there's sound... so I've boosted my knowledge of practical 'cheap' sound to understand how to do that as good as I can with the equipment I have...
But oddly, the situation is no different than when I was an art student in Photography in the 70's... I used a local communal darkroom, and for many of the people, they would spend mucho $$ on equipment, go to these horrid 'model photo shoots', and pull crappy prints out... and think they were golden... The management of the lab asked me to participate as a judge on a number of occasions... and the decision often was not 'what was the best'... but what was less bad than the rest...
At the moment the Wife and I are hosting a stills photo meetup in our area, and unfortunately none of that group are interested in motion picture photography... I've thought about highjacking the group... but the Wife isn't interested in motion pictures either...
On a personal note... I feel bad that I was not able to participate in the Ad Fest on BMCUser last spring... a clear case of work getting in the way of life... But that is another item that has declined on DVXUser as well... the lack of 'fest' to focus on creating short films with some sort of story, and technical finesse.
Last edited:
j1clark@ucsd.edu
Veteran
I agree that with the current set of camera options, ranging from the < $1K Blackmagic Pocket, to ARRIs and the like, the 'search' for the holy grail of cameras is over... chose the one that can be afforded and get shooting...
As for 'literary' processes... The Wife and I have given still photography seminars around the country in the past. She likes public speaking... I do everything to make her presentations go without a hitch... and if they don't, the audience gets to experience 'marital bliss' at its 'best'... in any case, what we have noticed is that most people who are doing say 'wedding's' or other events have almost no 'art' training. Perhaps they pick up a camera, frame a few shots, family, friends and neighbors 'ooh and aaah' the results and they are off in a 'pro' photo wedding business...
What our 'week long' seminars became in part was Art Theory/Appreciation Class... to make up for this lack. Almost everyone can name a few big names in art... Rembrandt, etc. but fewer can list modern art figures, other than say Picasso... or the like... and so we would attempt to provide some back ground to fill out the photographer's art knowledge.
I do think there is a distinct difference between people who 'make stories'... literary types 'write' their stories, 'visual' types work in images... I know for my short scripts, I'm always using my imaginary camera framing the shot, then describing the contents of the frame in the script... then there's dialog... well folks... often the first script from someone is filled with dialog that could be cut down to a silent film and be the better for it...
But I have run in to people who wanted the scene filmed as written... then later privately conceded that perhaps I was right in my suggestion to cut the dialog to 1) the bare essence, and 2) result in something non-pros could deliver and potentially work with...
Stephen Mick
Totally Usable
All good points, J. I'd also add that story, whether told visually or through dialogue, always starts with a filmmaker who has something to SAY. And I guess that's what I just don't see enough of here at DVXUser: filmmakers with a point of view. If you give this kind of artist ANY camera, he or she will very likely make something interesting. They don't need an Alexa to have something to say.
I look at Lena Dunham and the aforementioned Duplass Brothers as great examples of this. Whether or not you happen to like the way they tell stories, they clearly have something to say through their characters. There's nothing technically challenging about what they do, they're just great storytellers.
Again, my reasoning is the tedium of filmmaking vs the outcome (writing, waiting however long it takes for your unpaid/low paid actors to be available on the same day, post including editing, grading, special FX, scoring--I am also a musician----etc.), all for something that lasts a few minutes (never done a feature) and gets little to know response/views. I think the market for shorts exists. . .in the form of youtube and similar platforms, but you have to be able to be constantly creating/uploading to build a fanbase/get views/ monetize it. . .like WEEKLY at the LEAST. That's just not possible for most people.
As for what I'd want out of the site. . .it depends where my head is at the time. Right now I'm in "lusting for a cam" mode, so I'm researching cams. If I ever get back to filmmaking, I'll be thinking of technique, craft, etc. I, to this day, do not understand the search tool on this site. You search for something that you know was in a thread title three days ago, but get results going back 10 years ago NOT including the one you want.
As for what I'd want out of the site. . .it depends where my head is at the time. Right now I'm in "lusting for a cam" mode, so I'm researching cams. If I ever get back to filmmaking, I'll be thinking of technique, craft, etc. I, to this day, do not understand the search tool on this site. You search for something that you know was in a thread title three days ago, but get results going back 10 years ago NOT including the one you want.
Stephen Mick
Totally Usable
I'm quoting you here, Josh, but please don't take my comments as being aimed at you personally. This is most definitely not an attack on you. I've checked out your shorts and your YouTube channel, and you've made enough shorts to stand apart from what I'm about to say.
I hear these opinions shared quite a bit lately. They generally boil down to… A) Filmmaking is hard. B) Without an audience, it's just not worth it.
The more I think about these as the reasons for the decline of filmmaking, the more confused I get. Sure, filmmaking can be an arduous affair. It can be expensive. It requires a level of effort and commitment that few other artistic pursuits call for. It requires a degree of collaboration that exceeds ANY other art form I can think of. And it can be frustrating to dedicate that amount of time, effort, and creativity to something that might only get seen by a handful of people.
But at the end of the day, the best filmmakers make films NOT because it's easy, or because they're looking to build a fanbase or monetize their art. The filmmakers I know and have talked to make films because they can't imagine not making films. There's something that burns deep inside them, and the only real outlet they see to share that heat and light is film. I have good friends who are stand-up comedians. When I asked them why they do what they do, they look at me like I'm speaking another language. They do what they do because that is who they are, at their very core. To NOT do that thing would be to deny what they are, to ignore the creative fire that sustains them. And that is an option that they just can't even see.
And believe me, I don't hold myself up as a true filmmaker. I'd like to be, and I've carved out a niche that allows me to respect the creative fire inside me while still making a living doing what I do. But I'm lazier than I'd like to be sometimes. I lose touch with my love of storytelling at times, and when I come back to it, I always have the same epiphany: that THIS is what I should be doing. And then I don't do it. Life gets in the way. Things happen.
I guess what I'm saying is this… Filmmakers make films. When they don't have the resources they'd like, they find a way to tell a story. They realize that the things that make a story compelling are the things that have always brought people together. Character revealed through action. Motive revealed through conflict. These things don't change, and they likely never will. Their focus is on telling a fascinating story, regardless of theme or genre. I believe that if we start from that point and work from idea to execution, we are all capable of making a great film.
DPStewart
Veteran
"The short film has been replaced by the Vine."
I think to a great extent this is actually true.
It also proves that comedy almost always works best in very short, very quick deliveries.
I also think the blazing ubiquitousness of the Internet and social media has allowed everyone to see that narrative film work of any significant length is very very very hard to accomplish, takes a ton of hard work, takes a ton of other people working on it with you, WILL END UP BEING SEEN BY NEARLY NO ONE, and will almost assuredly NEVER recoup its investment. That's a pretty hard pill to swallow - and rightly so.
Of all the low budget/no budget narrative work I've watched over the years - I truly enjoyed or was impressed by nearly none of it. The low cost of cameras and editing equipment now has made it even easier for people with no real ability at all to flood the world with real crap, thus polluting the whole world of independent and low-budget film making even more.
VINES are a hit because 7-seconds is about the length that most people are able to create successful "narrative" pieces within.