Where does the HVX200 fit into Filmmaking?

...lots of interesting talk here about the new cam. bottom line. it will probaly be good at what it does. .. you can make a film with it and the resolution should hold up great on the big screen. it will probably cost you around 8-12 G's to effectively operate in HD pending what you are doing. BUT... it certainly is possible to just buy it and capture straight to your NLE or some other similar solution (like if you happen to own a DVCPRO tape deck) at no extra cost.

yes you could rent a sdx900.. and yes you could rent a 35mm cam.. and yes you could just stick rasins in your nose and sh0oot them out at your cat.. but most people who wil buy this cam will want the camera for alot more than just making a film.. they will use it for all sorts of stuff, and likely use it in alot of the different modes for different things. and who wants to rent a camera every time they need or want to do something. especially those of us who make money doing commercial type work when not making films. this ca is sort of a jack of all trades, and i think that throwing some sort of "mini 35" device in front of it when we want to make a film, or just throwing it in 1080 24p and walking onto the set will be satisfactoy enough for most of us.. look at jarreds film... shot on the DVX100.. not even the little upgraded "a" . and it has blockbuster and other distribution and was mistaken for 35mm. do you think it would have gotten more or better distribution if it was 35mm.. no.. it likely would be in the same place.. only have cost a heck of alot more. the real question is "do you need an SDX or 35mm or cine alta or varicam to make a film that gets to the big screen, or could you do it with the HVX" .. well we all know the most likely answer.. the only way your going to get to the big screen unless you have distribution and budget allready in place, is likely going to be through the festival circuit which might gain you distribution.. and the HVX could certainly do that for you. i mean, the less qualified PD150 , DVX, and XL1 have already done it...

if you dont like the camera or its price tag.. then rent away. but nobody who watches you film is likely going to care what you shot it on. the only care about how good the thing is. and if its a good film.. the HVX certainly promises to be a good enough camera to not make the visuals or resolution a distracting issue.. and will most likely be capeable of making it look beautiful. .. just like the DVx can.. only higher res. its just another choice.. and for many people it will be a great choice. the camera IS geared towards the indy filmmaker. and is a great tool for doing just that.
 
I have been reading the DVXuser forums for a few months as I contemplate the purchase of a new video camera. I was at one time very interested in purchasing the DVX100A, and very excited about the new HD HVX200, but not anymore. Let me tell you why. This forum. I know this is not an official Panasonic forum, but this is unofficially, THE PLACE to get information and interact with other Panasonic camera users. I have been completely turned off by the bias and unprofessional behavior here towards points of view not directly in line with the majority. The treatment of Collie in this thread, has sealed the deal for me. So, bottom line, I don't care if you all don't care about the loss of one DVX-100 sale, but I want you to know that it has occured and I am probably not the only person who has been given a negative feeling about Panasonic by this website.
 
..its one thing to disagree with others opinions , but its another to disseminate incorrect information. you can argue an opinion. but arguing non factual or contra-factual information is not cool. .. and if you didnt really catch that thats what wa going on.. thats unfortunate. it wasnt necissarily about an opinion.. it was about fact vs fiction. an opionion does not change a fact. and if people want to try to spread FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) with non factual or incorrect information .. they can get bent. ..if you condone that sort of thing your right, this isnt the place for you. if you dont .. wll then you need to read the thread again and rethink your standpoint.
 
Okay, I've read this thread and let me put my two cents in. Collie have a right to voice his opinion whether he is right or wrong. But if his information is inaccurate, then Barry and Jarred also have a right to correct him; as well as all other users. We haven't seen this camera yet FOLKS! All we can do is wait until a working model comes out then let the debate start or should I say "continue." We do need more specs from the Panasonic people. I was one of many who wanted 16:9 aspect ratio, but I still shoot in 4:3 for some projects. So the 4:3 resolution will be important as well as the 16:9 in regular DV. All this P2 stuff can be summed up as this. If you think the P2 is too expensive, stream to a hard drive. $150 gets you a 250 gig maxtor 7200 rpm. If I'm shooting a movie and I can't afford the P2, what is preventing me from bringing my G5 with a long firewire cord attached to the camera? Tracking shots, crane shots, static shots all can be done with an attached camera to computer setup. The P2 comes in handy if I have steadicam shots or a car mount scene. In that scenario the magic word is "RENT". I spoke with Jan at the Post NAB show at Abel Cine and she said that they will have a starting package with one P2 card. It doesn't mean that the $5995 price comes with a P2 card. It means that maybe for a couple of hundred more we may get a 4gig card which should be okay for now. No one should be banned from this site. This is not North Korea. This happens all the time when a new product is about to be release. Sites also get an influx of new people determined to undermine the positive flow of a good product. Only because they either purchased a camera that they are sorry they bought or they belong to the competition. Lets wait for the camera and see if Panasonic delivers the goods.
 
I like dissenting opinions.

We really won't know how the HVX will fit into the indie market until we see some footage and real world experience, however dismissing it out of hand as a tool for indie films before a frame has been shot is premature IMO.

Debate is a good thing. :)
 
Collie,

I feel bad that so much of this thread turned into a mob rant against you. I see where you're coming from and am questioning the very same economics of this camera. I am not a "pro-panasonic" zealot, I've made my living for the last 15 years with primarily Sony equipment, secondarily Panasonic, followed closely by Arri, Panavision, Moviecam, and Aaton (which I own), and lastly Canon & JVC. Every project presents a different set of challenges and my point is that you must judge each option fairly and look at the big picture of your budget before making decisions. I found that the cost analysis in your original post was decidedly narrow focused and inflamatory rather than presenting a rational argument. When offering advice to Producers or Clients I would hope that you do your homework a bit more and think it through. For a commercial I just shot, we used the SDX800 specifically because it was the least expensive way to get the quality of footage required by the project (4:2:2 for greenscreen). Having looked at the costs of both workflows completely (deck rental, tape stock, hard drives, insurance and all).

If p2 is so great why isnt anyone using the sdx800?
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As for P2 not being widely used, it is primarily due to Panasonic's marketing of the format. They have been heavily leaning their efforts toward the news gathering market, read any Panny press prior to the announcement of the HVX and you will see that it is aimed directly at the news market. It makes sense as these are the folks who would benifit most from the P2 workflow. The cameras have been mostly sold to stations and until a few weeks ago, weren't available for rent. From what I've read, it seems to be widely accepted and liked in the markets that are using it. In fact the upcoming winter olymic games will be a P2 show:

Since they have no moving parts and record on solid-state P2 cards, Panasonic DVCPRO P2 camcorders are extremely reliable and resistant to extreme weather, which make them an ideal choice for the possible severe weather of the Winter Games. The Panasonic's video equipment will be used during the 2006 Games at the International Broadcasting Centre and throughout the various athletic venues.
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For the commercial, I put my money where my mouth is and rented the first SPX800 available in LA less than a month ago from Birns and Sawyer. I can tell you that it truely is a terrific format to work with. I am editing the commercial as I write this post in Final Cut HD4.5 on an older 800 mhz G4, and it works fine. It kicks into draft quality mode on playback but outputs to DVD beautifully. Camera, cut, to DVD with no tape used. It isn't perfect and we did suffer through some guinne pig moments but the experience got me more excited about the HVX, not less. Which was the entire reason I rented the SPX, instead of the SDX, cost and too see if P2 was right for my style of shooting and if the camera performs well, whether I would be willing to leave tape behind.

Sorry for the long post,
David C. Smith
LA/OC D.P.
 
my two bits

my two bits

Debate is fine, even educational. However, I can't ever recall reading any post from Collie which wasn't flamebait.

Although I am a serious fanboy of the DVX100, I have serious doubts which I have expanded upon greatly in this forum about the economics of the P2 concept at its current price-point. Sure, it makes sense for studios and news outfits which need to capture short segments with a minimum of fuss. But I still argue that the P2, at the price we expect today, isn't attractive to the majority of indie videographers who are active on this site. Perhaps a poll about that might be interesting?

The original question was, 'where does the HVX200 fit into filmmaking?'

I'm just going to speak about my own interests and assumptions, and see if some meaningful posts will sprout up.

All we have is the specs, not the camera itself. We're probably two months away from seeing actual video from the HVX. So all we have to go on is Panasonic's reputation as a camera manufacturer, and where we think they are trying to go with their product line in the future. (Whew! Thanks for THAT update, Captain Obvious!)

I am betting that the HVX will be to HD what the DVX100 is to SD; that is, a revolution of exquisite technical quality for the price. That isn't to say that, in the hands of a chimp, you won't get chimp-footage with the HVX... but the camera will allow a skilled operator to capture footage in quality unheard of at this price point.

I think that Panasonic has hit a number of home runs here: the technical quality of the camera is probably going to be excellent; they are putting a product in the sweetspot of the emerging HD marketplace; and introducing what will be a very profitable new product line for them... razors... err, I mean, P2 cards. At this point, Panasonic could take a Colt .45, point it at their own foot, squeeze the trigger, and make a hole where Sony's foot used to be.

Really, if you look at Panasonic's entire camera line, they are beating up on the competition to the point of humiliation.

I just had an amusing thought: what if Sony had contracted Mike Tyson to be their spokesperson? :D It is funny to me because that is how I see Sony these days, as I have adequately ranted in other threads.

Anyway, the answer to the original question is that I suspect that the HVX200 will fit very well into my plans to do better and better film. Can't wait to see it!
 
Celluloid Dream said:
I have been reading the DVXuser forums for a few months as I contemplate the purchase of a new video camera. I was at one time very interested in purchasing the DVX100A, and very excited about the new HD HVX200, but not anymore. Let me tell you why. This forum. I know this is not an official Panasonic forum, but this is unofficially, THE PLACE to get information and interact with other Panasonic camera users. I have been completely turned off by the bias and unprofessional behavior here towards points of view not directly in line with the majority. The treatment of Collie in this thread, has sealed the deal for me. So, bottom line, I don't care if you all don't care about the loss of one DVX-100 sale, but I want you to know that it has occured and I am probably not the only person who has been given a negative feeling about Panasonic by this website.
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Don't judge a camera by its users

No offence, but who in there right mind loses all interest in a camera because they were offended by a small percentage of its users?!
 
Celluloid Dream,

You have one post to your name.

And you say you'll not buy a piece of equipment because of the opinions of fans on a decidedly pro-DVX, pro-Panasonic community forum. If that is the swaying criteria behind your decisions, how can you accuse anyone else of "bias" and "unprofessional behavior?" That sounds incredibly irrational.

If Sony came out with a new camera that had great "cine-gamma" color, good on-board audio, shot miniDV/DVCPRO25, 50, 100/@720p & 1080p, and recorded it to a cheaper medium than P2--for less than $6k--MANY of us would jump ship. I'm sure I would.

But right now the HVX, as proposed, is an exciting prospect. Useful now, and legs for the future. And BTW--for straight-to-DVD, the lowly DVX, when used competently and creatively, is more than sufficient quality to make great films.
 
Celluloid Dream said:
I have been reading the DVXuser forums for a few months as I contemplate the purchase of a new video camera. I was at one time very interested in purchasing the DVX100A, and very excited about the new HD HVX200, but not anymore. Let me tell you why. This forum. I know this is not an official Panasonic forum, but this is unofficially, THE PLACE to get information and interact with other Panasonic camera users. I have been completely turned off by the bias and unprofessional behavior here towards points of view not directly in line with the majority. The treatment of Collie in this thread, has sealed the deal for me. So, bottom line, I don't care if you all don't care about the loss of one DVX-100 sale, but I want you to know that it has occured and I am probably not the only person who has been given a negative feeling about Panasonic by this website.
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Well there goes my commission check. To be fair; Collie brought it upon himself. He was not treated poorly but patiently corrected about 600 times while he tossed out the propaganda and mis-information. Someone mentioned that he was "...questioning orthodox views." No. No he wasn't.

And who said "Props to him for standing up......" Standing up to what? Standing up any spouting ill-informaed bits of information? Making accusations?

Sony=Vegas. Jarred loves Sony. :thumbsup:
And, if you spent some time here you may discover so does Barry_S, Barry_Green, John_Hudson, all guys who are moderators of this forum. Use the best tools, I say.
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Good point Wells; I love Sony Vegas; shocking isn't it?

MattC
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You should definately know the bene of owning -vs- renting. How many lighting set-ups did you do a couple months ago? :cheesy: :beer:

It's just a camera guys. It's probaly going to rock. I can't have one; but damn if the future is looking good. I'll just RENT Bary's or David's. :laugh: :thumbsup: :beer: :engel017:

Seriously though; it's just a camera. Chill negative people.
 
Hudson......are you saying you WON'T be getting an HVX? WTF?

wtf-monkey.jpg


~reservoir~
 
I wish. I won't be in the Market for this type of camera until my skills warrant it. Meaning when I outgrow the DVX100.
 
John, I am in complete agreement with you. Yes, I buy lots of stuff. But I'm not in the business of making a movie. I'm a gear slut with toys and a hobby. :) Also, I think that the toys that we own and may own in the future, such as the HVX, are the best way to learn a set of skills. Sort of a DIY film school if you will. From that perspective I can certainly see the benefit to owning gear - it's why I buy stuff, just like you.

However, and maybe I'm way off here - it wouldn't be the first time, if I had written what I thought was THE script. And really wanted to turn it into a movie, a real movie that I would push for festival work with goal of getting a distribution deal or at least a development deal, I would raise funding and rent the best possible equipment (with the right crew to run it) and talent that I could. Seems to me that it's hard enough to achieve that goal without limiting yourself technically - even if that limitation is completely perceptive on the part of your intended audience (those who PURCHASE films). That was my only point. Scott Billups book goes into this in detail and what he writes makes a lot of sense to me. But again, what the hell do I know.

[EDIT: It is why for example, I own a small compliment of lights, but not a grip truck. If I needed more than what I have to learn and play on, I would just rent a grip with gear for the days needed. But that doesn't mean I'm right. I'm still thinking about this and learning.]

Matt
 
Hey, everybody. Kinda new here but only because I don't own a Panny product. I want to throw in 2 points because I'm an old film guy, done some work for the Phoenix Film Festival, etc. Let's say that I have a vested interest in this cam as a tool for indie filmakers.

1: If a firestore-like device materializes in time to buy it with the camera, that will obviously be the way to go. If not, there may be an interim market for P2 card rentals! Let's say your local rental house has 2 HVX-200's. They will probably buy 2-4 cards for each camera. If the camera does not go out on a particular day, why not rent the cards to a 200 owner who has no cards? Let's also say that a firestore is available, but costs $4000 (let's hope not). Again, a bit pricey to buy but right in a comfortable pocket to offer as a rental item. Anyway, it can still make sense to buy the camera for SD shoots on tape, and rent the (temporary) media for HD shoots.

2. If the quality is near to level we all expect, shooting a feature on this camera will be every bit as viable as shooting on a Varicam or CineAlta. IN THE RIGHT HANDS, of course. Most film festivals and distributors will first see a movie on a VHS or DVD screener. Once your movie is accepted into a festival, then you can worry about providing a nice, finished HD master for display, just as you would now. You don't even need to consider a 35 blowup unless the film is picked up.

The truth is, this is the camera I've been dreaming about (and knew was coming eventually) for ten years: A lightweight, portable, affordable camera that is not hobbled in any way, and is truly viable for blowup to 35mm. I suspect we've crossed a very important threshold here. The barrier to entry has reached DV levels, with no more technical excuses. Make no mistake, people will take this tool and run with it. Most will make crap, as always. I really look forward, however to what the next Soderberg, Tarrantino, Rodriguez, Smith or Aronofsky does with it. Hell, I look forward to what THOSE guys are going to do with it!
 
dudes, can't you see what's going on. "Collie" IS "Celluloid Dream". He just logged in with a new name and trying to give everyone a guilt trip. Not gonna work celly.
 
AZScott said:
I suspect we've crossed a very important threshold here. The barrier to entry has reached DV levels, with no more technical excuses. Make no mistake, people will take this tool and run with it. Most will make crap, as always.
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I enjoyed that, thanks.

I sometimes wonder what the $$$:quality ratio is for the average DVXuser. I've invested so much time and money in acquiring gear... just got to find a way to stop producing crap.
 
John_Hudson said:
I wish. I won't be in the Market for this type of camera until my skills warrant it. Meaning when I outgrow the DVX100.
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Come on, John I have never seen your work, but I bet that your skills are good enough to jump into the HVX.
 
Yeah John, you can do a 20,000 post video in high def!

Having watched your 10,000 video, I still think of you as looking like Christopher Walken...
 
I am not Celluoid dream. If you read any of my post, I have never been afraid to agree or disagree with the posters on this forum. I would never sign in under a different name.(i am actually working most of the time and wouldnt have time to play that game)

I stand by what I stated, economically, the hvx200 can not be better than Pannys 26k standard def camera(sdx900) . If they made their (8-10k hvx200) better than their 26k it would hurt their very profittable sdx900 market. They are a large intelligent Japanese company that will make sure their varicam and sdx900 markets are not affected. Cheers
 
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