When client says your rate is too high

That is attributed as being said first by Hugh O'Brian. It was popularized by Jack Elam, in a George Plimpton interview where he was explaining the stages of a character actor's career.

Who is Jack Elam?
Get me Jack Elam
I want a Jack Elam type
I want a younger Jack Elam
Who is Jack Elam.
 
keylight said:
Taking an inflexible position usually isn't very beneficial... to either side. If they are completely inflexible then it might be a sign that it's better to pass. But the same could be said to them about you. Inflexibility (on either side) isn't a great way to start a business relationship.
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Definitely.

One of the big problems with the "Sorry, that's my rate, go somewhere else," mentality, is that it shows a lack of understanding in how your client's process works. The person who hires you doesn't have an unlimited amount of money. They're usually squeezed just as much as you.

Very recently I had to find a substitute for a one day shoot that paid something like $600. I approached a guy to replace me, told him the rate up front, and asked if he could do it. He said he was available and was eager to do a great job. We talked more about the job, and then later he told me that his rate was $900 and he couldn't do it for less. Remember, I wasn't even the client, so I had absolutely no control over the pay. Yet he kept wasting my time, talking more about the project, and saying he'd love to do it if the rate were only a little higher. I kept reminding him that I wasn't the person who had anything to do with the rate. He wouldn't budge.

Then he referred me to a good friend of his, saying that maybe his friend would take the job. The same thing happened, except his friend's rate was $1300.

Some of the people in this thread have suggested to follow the advice of the guys in this story. I don't think it's good advice, though, because I'd never go back to those guys now, even if I could pay them.
 
First off there's always someone cheaper than you so there's little point fighting against that. Secondly I would try to explain why I cost as much as I do. Hey, one gotta make a living! Third it's always a bad idea to start off lowering rates as it's near impossible to raise them with the same client afterwards. Finally it's not worth to start dealing with a client that just want it cheaper than what you can provide.
 
Drew Ott said:
Very recently I had to find a substitute for a one day shoot that paid something like $600.
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OK. So let's do a quick peer test, sort of...

How would you break those $600 from that 'one day shoot' down, if you split it up into equipment (should actually also include computer and software), services (editing and color correcting and similar)? Also: do you shoot one day and edit that evening, or shoot one day and edit for the next two?

Have you done a calculation like that, or is it more a question of "I'll do this and then I can put $600 in my pocket"?
 
David W. Jones said:
This reminds me of the 5 stages of ones career.

Stage 1: Who the Fvck is Dave Jones.

Stage 2: We can't get the guy we want, but there's this new guy Dave Jones.

Stage 3: We have to use Dave Jones.

Stage 4: We need somebody like Dave Jones, but not so expensive.

Stage 5: Who the Fvck is Dave Jones.
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That is epic.
 
Paul F said:
That is attributed as being said first by Hugh O'Brian. It was popularized by Jack Elam, in a George Plimpton interview where he was explaining the stages of a character actor's career.

Who is Jack Elam?
Get me Jack Elam
I want a Jack Elam type
I want a younger Jack Elam
Who is Jack Elam.
Click to expand...

Maybe so, but it was funnier when David said it...
 
Drew Ott said:
Definitely.

One of the big problems with the "Sorry, that's my rate, go somewhere else," mentality, is that it shows a lack of understanding in how your client's process works. The person who hires you doesn't have an unlimited amount of money. They're usually squeezed just as much as you.

Very recently I had to find a substitute for a one day shoot that paid something like $600. I approached a guy to replace me, told him the rate up front, and asked if he could do it. He said he was available and was eager to do a great job. We talked more about the job, and then later he told me that his rate was $900 and he couldn't do it for less. Remember, I wasn't even the client, so I had absolutely no control over the pay. Yet he kept wasting my time, talking more about the project, and saying he'd love to do it if the rate were only a little higher. I kept reminding him that I wasn't the person who had anything to do with the rate. He wouldn't budge.

Then he referred me to a good friend of his, saying that maybe his friend would take the job. The same thing happened, except his friend's rate was $1300.

Some of the people in this thread have suggested to follow the advice of the guys in this story. I don't think it's good advice, though, because I'd never go back to those guys now, even if I could pay them.
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I'm not saying it's as black and white as "sorry, can't do it, go somewhere else", but even if you own all the gear and so you don't have to rent, there is likely a certain point below which it really is pointless for you to do the work. . .either 'cause you'd rather be off that day at that low of a rate, or you're risking someone who understands your "real" rate calling and you have to pass cause you're already booked making less money, etc. etc. AT THAT POINT, you have to say "sorry, can't do it, find someone else." Because AT THAT POINT, you are inflexible. You have been flexxed as far as you can, and if the client still can't afford you, you can flex no more and must pass on their gig. Doesn't really matter what their reasons for having that low of a budget are, when you can no longer do it, you can no longer do it.
 
Fortunately for me, there is a place in my town that is really high (and also really arrogant). So sometimes if someone is unrealistic on rates I'll kindly refer them to that particular competitor so they can get a good dose of cost.
And if they mention some of the lowball guys I kindly reply, " our competitor is ______".

When I managed a transmission shop there was a lowball competitor that swapped in junkyard units and called it a rebuild. Of course I couldn't tell the client that, but when a client would ask why joeblow was $999 and we were 2 or 3 times that, we would kindly reply, "we don't do that kind of work"
 
AndreeOnline said:
OK. So let's do a quick peer test, sort of...

How would you break those $600 from that 'one day shoot' down, if you split it up into equipment (should actually also include computer and software), services (editing and color correcting and similar)? Also: do you shoot one day and edit that evening, or shoot one day and edit for the next two?

Have you done a calculation like that, or is it more a question of "I'll do this and then I can put $600 in my pocket"?
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This was a camera operator gig, no equipment or editing or prep required. I didn't expect him to work beneath his rate, but he led me on by making it sound like he was interested, while secretly being entirely inflexible.
 
Josh Bass said:
I'm not saying it's as black and white as "sorry, can't do it, go somewhere else", but even if you own all the gear and so you don't have to rent, there is likely a certain point below which it really is pointless for you to do the work. . .either 'cause you'd rather be off that day at that low of a rate, or you're risking someone who understands your "real" rate calling and you have to pass cause you're already booked making less money, etc. etc. AT THAT POINT, you have to say "sorry, can't do it, find someone else." Because AT THAT POINT, you are inflexible. You have been flexxed as far as you can, and if the client still can't afford you, you can flex no more and must pass on their gig. Doesn't really matter what their reasons for having that low of a budget are, when you can no longer do it, you can no longer do it.
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Absolutely. I'm not saying the guy should have done the job, I'm saying that he should have told me 'no' from the start instead of wasting my time talking about the shoot. I told him right off the bat that I had no control whatsoever over the rate.
 
Agree. You mentioned something about the "sorry that's my rate" mentality in an earlier post. That's what the quote was responding to.
 
I'm getting on this thread a bit late.

If a customer won't let me make a living from my efforts, then they aren't a customer I want. Now sometimes you need to educate folks on what it takes to produce their project. When that happens, I give them my hourly or day rate, and break down a task list with times for each task. If that doesn't sway them, and they want lowball, walk away.
 
I'm not as in-flexible as I used to be and have a range that I'm willing to work within. But below the lower threshold and I'll pass.

Always be diplomatic with the (potential) client. You never know, if it doesn't work out this time, they may call you back when they can "afford" you.
 
A few months ago, someone asked me how much it would cost to film a concert he was staging. I sent him a bare bones quote for $21k for a 3 camera shoot including rentals & crew. He came back and said he was looking to spend more like $2-3k.

I told him that I couldn't make any suggestions at that price point.

He later sent me a link to what is probably the worst live concert clip I've ever seen. It looked to me a little bit like someone had a seizure and collapsed with their face on the switcher panel of the in house camera system.
 
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