Exactly the point. As professionals, we tut and shake our heads at poor line resolution, dismal audio, pixel counts yada yada yada and tell everyone that the camera we've chosen is best because it has x and y and z over the others. But the clients? They don't care. The haven't seen Reverie, haven't even heard of it - but they have seen any number of travel ads or McDonalds ads which look lovely and, invariably, have some tracking shots through long grass looking at people against a flaring sun; and they love it. They think it stands out from the rest and they don't care what camera or lens was used to achieve it. The agencies and the marketing departments are pretty sure it was a 5D, so that's what they ask for. I've had my AF101 on sale for 2 moths at an insultingly cheap price, and it's toxic. No-one in the UK wants to touch it, even 2nd hand, because however good it is, it doesn't deliver what the market demands. It's stuck between 2 stools - yes it's easier to nail focus, and yes it still gives good shallow depth of field, but it doesn't give the 'gorgeous yet rubbish' look of the 5D, even with my cine-modded 0.95 and CP2s.
When all is said and done, I should have just bought a DSLR...
- Thread starter nedcam
- Start date
Exactly the point. As professionals, we tut and shake our heads at poor line resolution, dismal audio, pixel counts yada yada yada and tell everyone that the camera we've chosen is best because it has x and y and z over the others. But the clients? They don't care. The haven't seen Reverie, haven't even heard of it - but they have seen any number of travel ads or McDonalds ads which look lovely and, invariably, have some tracking shots through long grass looking at people against a flaring sun; and they love it. They think it stands out from the rest and they don't care what camera or lens was used to achieve it. The agencies and the marketing departments are pretty sure it was a 5D, so that's what they ask for. I've had my AF101 on sale for 2 moths at an insultingly cheap price, and it's toxic. No-one in the UK wants to touch it, even 2nd hand, because however good it is, it doesn't deliver what the market demands. It's stuck between 2 stools - yes it's easier to nail focus, and yes it still gives good shallow depth of field, but it doesn't give the 'gorgeous yet rubbish' look of the 5D, even with my cine-modded 0.95 and CP2s.
...I've never been convinced that the Full Frame cameras are anything special provided that you shoot with equivalent quality glass on the M4/3 format and are in control of the post-processing. I still meet so many Final Cut editors that don't know how to properly care for non-Canon footage, so I try and get involved with post-production as much as possible. Any camera can look great with the right production-process.
If the original poster is doing lots of run'n'gun work, then I would look at something like the Canon C100 where you've got 12-stops of dynamic range right up to 20,000 ISO, which none of the DSLRs can touch.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
One strange thing - I mentioned my snafu with a 5d and sound.
Do people not charge for post? I mean all that synching and tonking about with sound
If I were a client i would be nuts over that
No to mention that ive never been on a job with a Zoom H4n in action where the batts didnt die every ten mins
And all the twatting about with swapping ND
Do people not charge by the hour? are clients happy when their shoot stops while the op plays with another filter or lens change - do they not feel that time is money?
(im assuming the client used to commission an EX1 style shooter)
If I were a client Id hire a af100 owner over a 5d owner any time
I might buy one just to get ND which my FS so sorely misses
S
Do people not charge for post? I mean all that synching and tonking about with sound
If I were a client i would be nuts over that
No to mention that ive never been on a job with a Zoom H4n in action where the batts didnt die every ten mins
And all the twatting about with swapping ND
Do people not charge by the hour? are clients happy when their shoot stops while the op plays with another filter or lens change - do they not feel that time is money?
(im assuming the client used to commission an EX1 style shooter)
If I were a client Id hire a af100 owner over a 5d owner any time
I might buy one just to get ND which my FS so sorely misses
S
PluralEyes and a few minutes of your time. Done.
Then you shouldn't be using Phantom Power, or if you absolutely need to, then you shouldn't be cheaping out on batteries.
If it's taking you an appreciable portion of production time to swap out a lens or an ND filter, then you're doing it wrong.
Unless you didn't know any better and only knew buzzwords like "Canon" "5D" and "DSLR". And, frankly, for all we like to complain about ignorant clients, their money is still just as spendable as more knowledgeable ones.
starcentral
Veteran
since the AF100 chip is smaller you need to go almost twice as "open" in your f-stop to yield the same effect as say shooting on a full frame DSLR. So when people are cranking open their aperture at f1.4 on a FF camera you need half that (f0.7) to get close to the same "look".
But a note about shooting wide open: most lenses don't produce the best quality fully open. Focus pulling is very difficult for subjects moving only even a few inches. The depth of field is so narrow that your subjects eyes/nose can be in focus but not their ears, shoulders, etc.. it can be "too much" blur.
Another trick for anyone on 4/3 is to move as far back as possible from the subject and use a more telephoto or zoom lens, it will help get that background blur.
In the end as others have said, if your clients want that look, then add a 7D or 5D to your arsenal and don't look back. If the F3 is within your budget, you will appreciate the "video camera" like features and 35mm sensor.
You can get very close to the 5DM2 look with a Voightlander 17mm f/0.95 lens on the AF100. It's a lens that any m4/3 owner should have in their collection.
And for people just not happy with the general "look" of the AF100, I wonder how many of them have done anything with the scene file settings. There are a lot of great ones floating about.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
When a 5d was my A cam I 'cheaped out' with a sound devices 702
Swapping primes and changing ND is slower than using a zoom and onboard ND you cant deny that..
I qualified my statements to the kind of clients who probably hired EX1 types before the 5d.
And you are right about clients, if they pay, who cares
S
When a 5d was my A cam I 'cheaped out' with a sound devices 702
You said H4N, and I said cheap out on "batteries"...unless Sound Devices 702 is a set of AA batteries that I'm not aware of.
If "appreciable portion of production time" equals denying that swapping primes and NDs is slower than zooms and built-in NDs, then I must be doing something wrong.
And I've found that if you start having to explain to clients why you don't have what they asked for, but what you have is better, then you've already lost the battle.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Gary
There is no point in pursuing the technical arguments, im sure we both know all the tech pros and cons
Now, this, to me, is interesting.
Im just about to put my 5d2 up for sale (to replace with a D800, only to rationalise to one set of lenses, sell my canon glasss, the 5d is a great stills cam) - in my head the function of either of these cameras is still photography (!) - I never choose them for vid, but use them when asked.
Now you have me worried that I need to keep the 5d!
S
There is no point in pursuing the technical arguments, im sure we both know all the tech pros and cons
Now, this, to me, is interesting.
Im just about to put my 5d2 up for sale (to replace with a D800, only to rationalise to one set of lenses, sell my canon glasss, the 5d is a great stills cam) - in my head the function of either of these cameras is still photography (!) - I never choose them for vid, but use them when asked.
Now you have me worried that I need to keep the 5d!
S
bill totolo
Veteran
Re: the OP, I feel ya.
I sold my 5DMKII last year and replaced it with an F3, which I love. I got to shoot a promo for MIB:III for Sony ImageWorks, and my first national commercial with it. But I felt like I was giving away too much work to the DSLR shooters.
I picked up a MKIII last week, literally three days later I booked a spot for a network launching in 700 restaurants around the country. I hesitate to name the client just yet but we'll be shooting a live performance of a band called Big Time Rush followed by sit down interviews. Three man crew. And I hope to turn this into a steady gig with this client.
So...horses for courses. It's a comparably low barrier investment that may pay off. And as a former MKII owner, I can say the MKIII is a step in the right direction.
I still have the F3, and am looking at several other camera platforms for 2013.
I sold my 5DMKII last year and replaced it with an F3, which I love. I got to shoot a promo for MIB:III for Sony ImageWorks, and my first national commercial with it. But I felt like I was giving away too much work to the DSLR shooters.
I picked up a MKIII last week, literally three days later I booked a spot for a network launching in 700 restaurants around the country. I hesitate to name the client just yet but we'll be shooting a live performance of a band called Big Time Rush followed by sit down interviews. Three man crew. And I hope to turn this into a steady gig with this client.
So...horses for courses. It's a comparably low barrier investment that may pay off. And as a former MKII owner, I can say the MKIII is a step in the right direction.
I still have the F3, and am looking at several other camera platforms for 2013.
keylight
Veteran
Never had a client demand a certain camera before. But if a client (or prospective client) came to me and offered me a job providing I shoot using a specific DSRL that I don't have, I'll offer something better. If they say they must have it on the specific DSLR, I'll go rent it with the lenses I'll need and build it into the cost.
On the day of the shoot I'll bring both, and give them a choice - this DSLR (sitting without a cage, rails, matte box) or the gear I normally use (primarily an ENG camera).
Somehow I doubt they'll still want me to use the DSLR, but it'll be there if they do.
Of course, I'm thinking about gearing up with a GH3, cage, rails, matte box..... But that's not because anyone has asked for this stuff.
On the day of the shoot I'll bring both, and give them a choice - this DSLR (sitting without a cage, rails, matte box) or the gear I normally use (primarily an ENG camera).
Somehow I doubt they'll still want me to use the DSLR, but it'll be there if they do.
Of course, I'm thinking about gearing up with a GH3, cage, rails, matte box..... But that's not because anyone has asked for this stuff.
Grug
Veteran
^
This.
At the end of the day, they're just tools. You should use whichever one makes the most sense for your business.
Personally, I think it's hard to go past the D800/D600 + PIX240/220 route for DSLR work. The HDMI ouput from the cameras gives you a lovely high-bitrate image when recorded to ProRes or DNxHD, and using the PIX recorders allows you to get beautiful, high-quality sync sound built into your footage. It's a far more sophisticated and effective option than any of the other "on-camera" sound recording options currently available for other DSLRs.
The PIX recorders also give you the benefit of a 5" monitor (a good one in the case of the IPS screen on the 220i/240i), false colour, 1:1 pixel zoom, and peaking.
Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
While i love the hell out of my pix240 and sounddevices constant updates, the monitor lacks the resolution of say, the tvlogic 5.6"
Usually the specific camera demands come on jobs for which I'm shooting one small portion... usually a single interview as part of a larger piece, or other small package that will fit into the whole. One job went so far as to specify which lens kit to use ("no substitutions, please"). On those, it somewhat makes sense that the producers would want a unified "look," although in my experience they never specify scene file settings or the like which throws a bit of difference into each separate parts' "look" anyway... not to mention assigning different DP's to each piece.
I can't fairly fault the system, as such reasoning still gets good paying work for my ol' long-toothed HVX... heck, that old beast still gets me more specific request work than Canon DSLR. But even that camera choice years ago may have been debatable, as I've had to rent or operate Sony EX1/3 cameras more than either, and I still see those frequently specified.
I can't fairly fault the system, as such reasoning still gets good paying work for my ol' long-toothed HVX... heck, that old beast still gets me more specific request work than Canon DSLR. But even that camera choice years ago may have been debatable, as I've had to rent or operate Sony EX1/3 cameras more than either, and I still see those frequently specified.
Erik Naso
Veteran
+1 Go get yourself a full frame DSLR and make some money.
nedcam
Well-known member
OP here:
Wow! Thanks everyone for your input. I was gone shooting for a couple of days and just logged in and can't believe how many responses there are, a real sense of community here with people helping out. I sped read them, will go over them slower later, but basically here's a few answers:
• I came from a TV broadcast background using full size 2/3" cameras, although for corporate gigs I had 1/3" like HVX200s and the workhorse HPX300. For a couple years I saw the DSLRs encroaching on my market for corporate, including the lowering of rates due to an increased supply of cheap shooters, but TV was putting food on the table with History Channel, Discovery, PBS, Animal Planet, those types of shows.
• As TV work started to taper down, and I'm not getting any younger, I felt I needed to up my corporate producing work because that is what is the bread and butter around here, I love and have specialized in docs but they don't pay well. So I had to make the decision for shallow d-o-f of either a DSLR or AF100. I seemed to have leaped into the tail end of the AF100 popularity cycle as the alternatives hit, albeit for another $4000. Usually through my career I got in on the ground floor as an early adopter but I bought in late to the AF100, I love the camera but I must get more of a "5D look" out of it based on the requests.
• Like many of you, if I am producing I can choose whatever damn camera I want, but since most of my work is as a freelance DP I do have a lot, perhaps a third, of clients requesting specific models because I will be shooting just the Chicago/Midwest/US segment of a previously shot video. In the good old days they'd ask for something I owned because there weren't many models to choose from back then, like a Sony Betacam D600, or Ikegami 79E, or an Aaton film camera, etc. I can tell from my Caller ID that if it's a reality show they will probably ask for a Sony EX3, etc. News will want XD. I have recently had calls from ESPN asking for a F3, agencies wanting a C300 etc. So I do get an idea as to what is popular by the requests. I know if the call is from the east coast they will lean towards XD. Sometimes I am given specific scene file settings and have to communicate with the last DP.
• I have been doing this for so long I have seen many, many styles come and go but this frustratingly, really ridiculously out of focus background look seems to be sticking around longer than I expected. Who would have thought that the look of 1870's still portraiture, where the eyes are in focus and the ears are soft, would be popular in 2013?
• Nowadays I deal a lot with marketing execs and agencies who are not technically knowledgable but they will send me examples of what they want it to look like, and that is what caused my post. They will send examples and they tend to be the DSLR look. In fact, for my Tuesday gig a client asked if I would be shooting with a DSLR and I had to launch into my, "Well it's not exactly a DSLR, it's the AF100 and looks much like a DSLR blah, blah, blah..." I am not sure as a Director of Marketing she knows what a DSLR is, probably the editor or her local shooter said something like, "Get a DSLR DP in Chicago." And the name Canon has become the default...
• Once I get a conversation going I will send them via Yousendit very specific samples that I have pre-cut or steer them to my clients' web videos to get an agreement as to the style and that is how I determine which camera, hopefully something I own.
• Here are three examples that were sent to me by prospects and clients requesting I replicate, that I feel are DSLR, and my skill levels with the AF100 (or the Scarlet I hired) just can't squeeze out that look, especially since I have no control in post:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5FYL5XDrwE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eyec4zg9r1I
https://vimeo.com/7850818
http://www.spunkyartphotography.com
So I'm getting an "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" vibe. I'm in a service business and need to go where the money is. If you guys, who I respect highly, can steer me as to how to get this look out of an AF100 I'd love to hear it. I can afford faster lenses. I tend to draw the kind of shoots where, besides interviews, we have little control and are following the action so I'm not in a position to look up DoF tables, etc. Some of the samples the posters have steered me towards come close to a 5D vibe but the above 4 examples have a definite look that I just don't see the AF100 doing. Am I missing something?
Thanks,
Ned
Wow! Thanks everyone for your input. I was gone shooting for a couple of days and just logged in and can't believe how many responses there are, a real sense of community here with people helping out. I sped read them, will go over them slower later, but basically here's a few answers:
• I came from a TV broadcast background using full size 2/3" cameras, although for corporate gigs I had 1/3" like HVX200s and the workhorse HPX300. For a couple years I saw the DSLRs encroaching on my market for corporate, including the lowering of rates due to an increased supply of cheap shooters, but TV was putting food on the table with History Channel, Discovery, PBS, Animal Planet, those types of shows.
• As TV work started to taper down, and I'm not getting any younger, I felt I needed to up my corporate producing work because that is what is the bread and butter around here, I love and have specialized in docs but they don't pay well. So I had to make the decision for shallow d-o-f of either a DSLR or AF100. I seemed to have leaped into the tail end of the AF100 popularity cycle as the alternatives hit, albeit for another $4000. Usually through my career I got in on the ground floor as an early adopter but I bought in late to the AF100, I love the camera but I must get more of a "5D look" out of it based on the requests.
• Like many of you, if I am producing I can choose whatever damn camera I want, but since most of my work is as a freelance DP I do have a lot, perhaps a third, of clients requesting specific models because I will be shooting just the Chicago/Midwest/US segment of a previously shot video. In the good old days they'd ask for something I owned because there weren't many models to choose from back then, like a Sony Betacam D600, or Ikegami 79E, or an Aaton film camera, etc. I can tell from my Caller ID that if it's a reality show they will probably ask for a Sony EX3, etc. News will want XD. I have recently had calls from ESPN asking for a F3, agencies wanting a C300 etc. So I do get an idea as to what is popular by the requests. I know if the call is from the east coast they will lean towards XD. Sometimes I am given specific scene file settings and have to communicate with the last DP.
• I have been doing this for so long I have seen many, many styles come and go but this frustratingly, really ridiculously out of focus background look seems to be sticking around longer than I expected. Who would have thought that the look of 1870's still portraiture, where the eyes are in focus and the ears are soft, would be popular in 2013?
• Nowadays I deal a lot with marketing execs and agencies who are not technically knowledgable but they will send me examples of what they want it to look like, and that is what caused my post. They will send examples and they tend to be the DSLR look. In fact, for my Tuesday gig a client asked if I would be shooting with a DSLR and I had to launch into my, "Well it's not exactly a DSLR, it's the AF100 and looks much like a DSLR blah, blah, blah..." I am not sure as a Director of Marketing she knows what a DSLR is, probably the editor or her local shooter said something like, "Get a DSLR DP in Chicago." And the name Canon has become the default...
• Once I get a conversation going I will send them via Yousendit very specific samples that I have pre-cut or steer them to my clients' web videos to get an agreement as to the style and that is how I determine which camera, hopefully something I own.
• Here are three examples that were sent to me by prospects and clients requesting I replicate, that I feel are DSLR, and my skill levels with the AF100 (or the Scarlet I hired) just can't squeeze out that look, especially since I have no control in post:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5FYL5XDrwE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eyec4zg9r1I
https://vimeo.com/7850818
http://www.spunkyartphotography.com
So I'm getting an "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" vibe. I'm in a service business and need to go where the money is. If you guys, who I respect highly, can steer me as to how to get this look out of an AF100 I'd love to hear it. I can afford faster lenses. I tend to draw the kind of shoots where, besides interviews, we have little control and are following the action so I'm not in a position to look up DoF tables, etc. Some of the samples the posters have steered me towards come close to a 5D vibe but the above 4 examples have a definite look that I just don't see the AF100 doing. Am I missing something?
Thanks,
Ned
Last edited:
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
To some extent this is a real 5d look, id consider getting one (a mk2?) and maybe a 20mm 2.8, beyond that you are sorted with the other lenses you mentioned
So you should be good for $1500 - $2k which is not the end of the world
I think that investment is worth it.. just to get the C badge (BS that it is)
But KEEP the AF too.
But maybe you also need to look at your work, I found your example headshot and .. its too good, too competent, too telly
It just looks like telly with a clean rimlight, no haircut, and space at the bottom for astons/titles
(remember the tighter your frame the narrower the DOF)
Ease up a little. Use a window not a light, bin the rimlight handhold and close in and get a plant in the way.. its exciting
S
as for multi operator shoots, I can see the logic in that, almost.
So you should be good for $1500 - $2k which is not the end of the world
I think that investment is worth it.. just to get the C badge (BS that it is)
But KEEP the AF too.
But maybe you also need to look at your work, I found your example headshot and .. its too good, too competent, too telly
It just looks like telly with a clean rimlight, no haircut, and space at the bottom for astons/titles
(remember the tighter your frame the narrower the DOF)
Ease up a little. Use a window not a light, bin the rimlight handhold and close in and get a plant in the way.. its exciting
S
as for multi operator shoots, I can see the logic in that, almost.
Seeing as you're invested in Nikon-mount glass, I'd recommend trying out a full-frame D800 or D600 DSLR, for use as a B-cam alongside your AF100. They will produce the same narrow DOF effects as a 5DMkII, while making best use of your lens collection.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Of course nikon fit canon.
Id pick a D800 I guess? is that the best FF (not 1dx/c) DSLR at the mo? - I dont know
I suggested a used 5dmk2 for cost reasons, probably $1k now?
S
Id pick a D800 I guess? is that the best FF (not 1dx/c) DSLR at the mo? - I dont know
I suggested a used 5dmk2 for cost reasons, probably $1k now?
S