FS7: What's your look and color process? Both in-cam and post?

traviswears

traviswears

Well-known member
Warning, a bit of a long post here. Forgive me if this has all been covered 10x elsewhere. I've looked around and found some pieces but still have questions.

So far, everything about the FS7 has been relatively easy. The menus are deep but Doug's MasterClass helped a ton with that.

The one thing I am struggling a bit with is the color process. Coming from Canon, color has always been easy. Shoot in Neutral, Clog or WideDR, use a curve and some minor contrast and sat adjustment and I've had so few color issues, I can't even bring one to mind right now. The Sony is a different beast. The color options are endless and I'm not sure yet if that's actually a good thing (for my workflow).

I did some ghetto testing in my house a few nights ago with Doug's BROLL, Interview and Universal settings and compared them w/the Cine EI Slog2 and Slog3 options using 60% IRE on a whitecard for exposure. I also shot a very similar shot using WideDR on my C100 to compare.

I was able to get the Broll and Interview shots looking close to the Canon's after some tweaking. Though they are both a lot sharper. Almost too detailed for an interview shot IMO. I never used a lot of sharpening with WideDR in the past and I have to add massive amounts of unsharp mask to get the Canon looking anything like the Sony in the custom profiles.

The slog2 and slog3 profiles aren't nearly as sharp but none of the LUTs in Premiere or FilmConvert look anything like what my end goal with this footage would be. The closest is probably the Alexa_Default_LogC2Rec709 but even that has to be tweaked fairly heavily to get anywhere. The camera profiles in for the FS7 in FilmConvert I found to be nearly useless. Maybe I'm doing it wrong?

I was under the impression that using a post-LUT w/Cine EI and Slog would result in a pleasing image with minimal additional grading. If so, where are these LUTs?!

Also, there is major banding in my Cine EI Slog footage.

I know I've asked about color here before but if anyone can help shed some light on their process, I'd be grateful.

- Are you shooting mostly custom or Cine EI?
- If custom, what scene files?
- What LUTs in post and where can I find them?
- Any sharpening, etc...part of your regular color correction?
- How to handle noise and banding in Cine EI slog in PremierePro?

Doug, I'd buy a follow-up video from you detailing more about custom v Cine EI process and using LUTs and basic correction and grading in post. I like your instructional style.

Again, I'm a Sony newbie, so thanks for the patience.
 
I've placed a copy of Sony's LUTs for slog2 and slog3… (as well as a few others) here.. www.hingsberg.com/LUTs

Or you can buy 3rd party LUTs from impulz and other makers.

In general I only shoot CineEI mode slog3 since it came out. For me it grades better with less effort, looks better, and all around clients seem to like it. If you do shoot in custom mode slog, be sure to disable matrix from the menu … that will help lots later on with the color.

Sony is a bit like Pandora's box in terms of color and getting it down to something you like. I directed a multi-camera concert a few weeks back and used Canon C100's CP8 profile and absolutely love the results and look I got with it, no effort at all really. The client is really going to like it, I know I sure do.
 
Hi Travis, I don't have time tonight or tomorrow for an in-depth answer, so here's my short answer: Learn Resolve. Premiere is not a proper grading program. Anyone who is going to dip their toes in the CINE EI workflow must also accept that they need to manipulate the footage in a dedicated grading program such as Resolve, Baselight, etc. Resolve is free so there's really no argument not to learn it and use it. I assure you that you will be happy you did. Thank you for your suggestion of a training video that covers RAW and S-LOG workflows in post, it is already something that is tentatively on my schedule for production in March. I don't really consider myself to be a Resolve "expert" and I am a long way from being a professional colorist, but I do have a pretty good workflow and grading techniques figured out for Sony footage that could help give other people a shove in the right direction and save hours of their time. But it is way too complex an issue to address in a forum post.
 
starcentral said:
I've placed a copy of Sony's LUTs for slog2 and slog3… (as well as a few others) here.. www.hingsberg.com/LUTs

Or you can buy 3rd party LUTs from impulz and other makers.

In general I only shoot CineEI mode slog3 since it came out. For me it grades better with less effort, looks better, and all around clients seem to like it. If you do shoot in custom mode slog, be sure to disable matrix from the menu … that will help lots later on with the color.

Sony is a bit like Pandora's box in terms of color and getting it down to something you like. I directed a multi-camera concert a few weeks back and used Canon C100's CP8 profile and absolutely love the results and look I got with it, no effort at all really. The client is really going to like it, I know I sure do.
Click to expand...

Thx Dennis. Do you find yourself using the same LUT as a starter for most purposes?

If so, which one?

Agreed about the C100s color. Nowhere near the paint options of the Sony but easy to use CP8 in nearly any situation and get great results.
 
I'm usually using 709(800) for monitoring on set in front of clients or others who need to see the color of the talent/subject, etc.. but in post if I'm part of grading sometimes I start from scratch, other times I try LC709A or LC709.

I own the impulz LUTs and never use them, not because they are not good, just because I'm so busy with jobs, etc.. I just don't have the time to fiddle around as much as I'd like.

I do grade in Davinci Resolve when budgets allow it, and I do think it's the best and only grading software on this planet, but do yourself a favor and download FREE catalyst browse from sony and bring your footage into it. For one it will make use of the metadata which can be helpful, and you can select one of the four Sony luts from within the software then tweak a few dials to taste. Tint, temperature, and saturation is usually enough to make things look great.

I did this very fast in catalyst browse earlier in the month;

cb_amir_crop_zpsx71eaoqr.png
 
I think there is plenty enough control in the new CC2015 Lumetri panel for most quick grading efforts. I use Resolve when secondaries are needed
 
Travis,

Get yourself a copy of LUTCalc, you can easily build any base LUT you desire for use in post or to bake in camera. LUTCalc is an essential purchase IMHO.

My current favourite LUT that I use as a base for grading is the BBC 800 gamma with a little added highlight roll off in conjunction with the LC709A gamut. Beyond doing minor adjustments for exposure this is my standard look and doesn't have any of the vibrant Sonyisms that shooting in CUSTOM Mode has.

If you were to spend the time in LUTCalc I'm pretty sure you could build a Canon LUT, all the controls are there if you're prepared to spent the time tuning.
 
traviswears said:
Also, there is major banding in my Cine EI Slog footage.
Click to expand...

You probably have not enabled Premiere Pro to edit 10-bit color, since i assume you are coming from 8-bit Canon cameras.

You need to tick off Maximum Bit Depth option under Sequence Settings. That way, you no longer grade on a down converted 256 color image :-)


Also, you need to purchase LUTCalc and make yourself some LUTs there, based on the LC709A profiles. Throw them onto your footage and revel in amazing instant images.

But like Doug said, learn Resolve. It will literally blow your mind what you can do with the Cine EI 10-bit XAVC footage. And for myself learning Resolve, it really felt like a primer for taking up on RAW footage at a later stage as well.
 
While just about everything here has been said, I would add that learning Resolve isn't a daunting task. Actual operation of the application is relatively simple. Achieving grading skills takes a combination of native talent, training and experience to develop. But that doesn't mean that even with a basic knowledge of the program you can't crank out some very decent looking color.

Don't underestimate Dennis' advice about Catalyst Browse. Not only do you bring in all of the metadata, you can apply a LUT and do corrections. Note that with the free Catalyst Browse, the same grade will be applied to every clip in your session. If you want to grade individual clips, then you have to go with the paid Sony Catalyst Prepare.

My personal workflow-- it depends. I prefer to shoot SLog3 if possible. I prefer to shoot ProRes to my Odyssey 7Q+ and on occasions RAW. I await Sony's fix for some of the issues with FS7 RAW. I had some low light outdoor work on the NYC waterfront and shot HG 7 (matrix off, as mentioned) also to the Odyssey. This past week shooting some corporate work for another producer/DP, we shot pure Rec709 XAVC to internal cards since it had to be turned around in 24 hours, no time to grade, and the client was perfectly satisfied. It's all situational.

Good luck with the camera and with figuring out what works best for you.

Ned Soltz
 
nsoltz said:
Note that with the free Catalyst Browse, the same grade will be applied to every clip in your session. If you want to grade individual clips, then you have to go with the paid Sony Catalyst Prepare
Click to expand...

The work around with the free version is just to save your color setting for each set of clips you might have and then later load as required. Rarely I find all clips need major independent tweaks, unless completely different location, day, lighting setup, etc..

Anyway working around it has gotten me by. Sony had given me a free version of Prepare but the serial number stopped working after an upgrade or something.
 
There is a Canon look WYSIWYG LUT for the F5/Fs7 on XDCAM user.. I often burn this in with Slog3/cine .. as recommended from the site..for non log shoots.. Ive never shot with canon camera,s .. but always liked the look that I,d seen.. and this LUT is pretty nice .. but I cant say if its a 100% accurate copy as i dont know the canon look in the first place.. but it looks good and pro ports to be a Canon look..
 
Travis - all good advice you've received above. I would simply add that I had never shot any type of log footage before purchasing my FS7 last December. And after getting over the initial learning curve - in very large part to Doug's book & Alister's xdcam site - now I am a bit bummed when I don't get to grade footage myself and have to shoot in Custom for a WYSWYG look to hand over to clients immediately. CineEI is certainly my preference and Slog3cine is easy to grade and I love the colors in that mode. I'm still getting up to full speed in Resolve - but also prefer FCPX (with the Color Finale plug-in) to Premiere.
Keep experimenting with CineEI and remember over-exposing in Slog is also called rating the camera at a lower ISO...
 
markfpv said:
Travis - all good advice you've received above. I would simply add that I had never shot any type of log footage before purchasing my FS7 last December. And after getting over the initial learning curve - in very large part to Doug's book & Alister's xdcam site - now I am a bit bummed when I don't get to grade footage myself and have to shoot in Custom for a WYSWYG look to hand over to clients immediately. CineEI is certainly my preference and Slog3cine is easy to grade and I love the colors in that mode. I'm still getting up to full speed in Resolve - but also prefer FCPX (with the Color Finale plug-in) to Premiere.
Keep experimenting with CineEI and remember over-exposing in Slog is also called rating the camera at a lower ISO...
Click to expand...

Thx for the feedback. Are you using the standard Sony LUTs or something else?

You typically over-expose SLOG2 and 3?
 
starcentral said:
I'm usually using 709(800) for monitoring on set in front of clients or others who need to see the color of the talent/subject, etc.. but in post if I'm part of grading sometimes I start from scratch, other times I try LC709A or LC709.

I own the impulz LUTs and never use them, not because they are not good, just because I'm so busy with jobs, etc.. I just don't have the time to fiddle around as much as I'd like.

I do grade in Davinci Resolve when budgets allow it, and I do think it's the best and only grading software on this planet, but do yourself a favor and download FREE catalyst browse from sony and bring your footage into it. For one it will make use of the metadata which can be helpful, and you can select one of the four Sony luts from within the software then tweak a few dials to taste. Tint, temperature, and saturation is usually enough to make things look great.

I did this very fast in catalyst browse earlier in the month;

cb_amir_crop_zpsx71eaoqr.png
Click to expand...

Thanks again Dennis. Yes, I'd love to learn Resolve also but can empathize with not having a lot of time to devote to it. I'm always several projects deep and they keep coming! So thanks for the experienced advice.

Downloaded Catalyst Browse and I'm finally getting somewhere w/the LC709a LUT.

Do you tend to add any sharpness or noise reduction in post after the basic grade? I noticed that Slog is not very sharp compared to the custom modes and I don't see sharpness or noise reduction in CB.
 
traviswears said:
Thx for the feedback. Are you using the standard Sony LUTs or something else?

You typically over-expose SLOG2 and 3?
Click to expand...
I most often use exposure compensated, and extended Sony LUTs as starting point (you can create these in LutCalc - or download some from Alister's site or elsewhere... and yes - typically I rate my FS7 at ISO1000 - so overexpose by a stop (shooting almost all Slog3Cine the past 3 months)

Also - one other nice feature of Cat Browse that Dennis didn't mention is that you can export LUT's from the program... under the Tools button under the inspector tab in color space - you can export cube format LUT to use in other programs... and since the metadata is read for ISO camera setting (when rating camera differently and you adjust the slider there) - this, I'm pretty sure, will give you an EI compensated LUT to use in Lumetri, Resolve, etc.
 
yep but the exported luts levels don't match the adjustments you make. the lut applied in premiere looks v different to what you've done in catalyst browse.
 
I recently did a simple grade in Browse for a client, and emailed him the Sony LUT I used as base. He applied it in After Effects without any adjustments and it looked really bad and he thought I was crazy. On top of it, I shot 1 stop over and it wasn't brighter at all.

Not sure what Adobe is doing with LUTS, I definitely haven't seen Davinci behave like this.

I remember discovering a few bugs with sony's software when you switch around the original gamma / color space, so that might have something to do with it. That or I'm just going crazy.
 
traviswears said:
Thanks again Dennis. Yes, I'd love to learn Resolve also but can empathize with not having a lot of time to devote to it. I'm always several projects deep and they keep coming! So thanks for the experienced advice.

Downloaded Catalyst Browse and I'm finally getting somewhere w/the LC709a LUT.

Do you tend to add any sharpness or noise reduction in post after the basic grade? I noticed that Slog is not very sharp compared to the custom modes and I don't see sharpness or noise reduction in CB.
Click to expand...

Sorry I missed your question, in general I never use sharpening in post (so far haven't had to) but I did go in on a group buy on REDuser.net for Neat Video's NR software plugin. It's the best I've used and far better than Davinci's NR methods. With Neat Video you can gain an extra stop or two in the shadows which otherwise people tend to crush to 0% just to hide. (crushing black really not advised unless you want that as a look)

I don't like to sound like I'm overstating things, but to me Resolve is not an easy user-friendly program to learn. Others may disagree but it will depend how far and advanced you take the grading you want to accomplish in Resolve.

When I made the decision 4 years ago to invest in Resolve and put my head down to actually use it on full length projects and had to go through the learning curve it was frustrating and at the time there really weren't a lot of resources online other than the odd tutorial by someone who thought they knew coloring. I had to watch these videos to understand what the person thought they were accomplishing, then turn around and apply it to what I was actually trying to do. The Davinci manual is probably the best way to learn the software to be honest.

With Resolve for basic stuff like curves, skewing tonals ranges towards colors, this is absolutely no different than moving wheels in Colorista, Magic Bullet, Premiere's fast color corrector, etc.. all of which I've used in the past and sure it's very easy to do in Resolve. But the power of Davinci Resolve goes far past these basic color corrector tools. For example creating power windows with the ability to animate them with speed and ease. Advanced hue and color saturation tools based on luminance, etc.. But some things in Resolve are just not very easy. ie. Keyframing in Resolve is not intuitive so if you need to change wheel or other values over time, you might pull your hair out with it. Still there is no other tool on this planet like Davinci Resolve and what it can do and it's the reason why it's the tool of choice for Technicolor and other coloring facilities. On a professional and polishing level it makes absolutely no sense to use any other software.

But for basic grading, or normalizing Sony's slog2/3 footage Catalyst Browse/Prepare is necessary and thank god they came out with it because now you can give a client slog shot footage and a copy of CB and easily have them apply a look and if necessary transcode to another codec like ProRes, etc..
 
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Camera.

Slog 3

Expose so the thick bit of the WFM is in the middle, watch for highlight being clipped.

Post

Davinci, add Slog-LC709a LUT

Add a bit more punch using an SCurve.

Done
 
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