What's wrong with Christian filmmaking?

[mainstreetprod]

So it looks kinda funny, but how is it "Christian"? What if those people were all atheists or Muslims? Doesn't everyone get overwhelmed taking care fo the kids sometimes? I mean, "Honey I shrunk the kids" is funny without any cursing in it, but it's not a Christian movie.

Patricia Heaton plays a pastor's wife, the rest of the women who have the "night out" are her friends from church, and as I mentioned Trace Adkins "ministers" to the group when they are sitting in the police station. The reason I believe it succeeds is because it does not "hit you over the head" with Christianity. It is the well told story of a madcap day in the life of a group of Christians.

 

[Gillvane]

Patricia Heaton plays a pastor's wife, the rest of the women who have the "night out" are her friends from church, and as I mentioned Trace Adkins "ministers" to the group when they are sitting in the police station. The reason I believe it succeeds is because it does not "hit you over the head" with Christianity. It is the well told story of a madcap day in the life of a group of Christians.

I could be wrong, but I don't think it's actually a "Christian" movie. The problem with Christian movies is that they are about Christianity. That's what generally makes them boring.

This movie seems like it is about a woman's madcap day when she tries to have a girls night out. They ARE Christians, but it's not about them being Christians. At least that's what the trailer looks like. Christians movies tend to be about being Christian. Prayer to Jesus saves the day, something along those lines. The evil sinner realizes he has to become Christian.

Like I said, looking at the trailer, she could be the wife of an Hvac repair man and her friends could all be members of the book club she belongs to. Same movie. The guy "ministering" at the jail, could just as easily be the wise black man trope.

I mean Tyler Perry movies always have a choir singing in some scene and Madea is always calling on the Lord, but I wouldn't really call them "Christian" movies.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicalNegro

 

[mainstreetprod]

I could be wrong, but I don't think it's actually a "Christian" movie. The problem with Christian movies is that they are about Christianity. That's what generally makes them boring.

This movie seems like it is about a woman's madcap day when she tries to have a girls night out. They ARE Christians, but it's not about them being Christians. At least that's what the trailer looks like. Christians movies tend to be about being Christian. Prayer to Jesus saves the day, something along those lines. The evil sinner realizes he has to become Christian.

Like I said, looking at the trailer, she could be the wife of an Hvac repair man and her friends could all be members of the book club she belongs to. Same movie. The guy "ministering" at the jail, could just as easily be the wise black man trope.

I mean Tyler Perry movies always have a choir singing in some scene and Madea is always calling on the Lord, but I wouldn't really call them "Christian" movies.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicalNegro

There are a lot of different definitions of what a Christian movie is. If the definition is a movie that is made by Christians, about Christians and geared for Christians, this one meets that definition. If the definition is a movie that preaches a lot and someone gets saved, it doesn't. That's why it will appeal to a wider audience.

These days, more subtle Christian films are referred to as "faith based".

 

[Finn Yarbrough]

I can't help but notice that our working definition of "Christian Movie" is getting narrower and narrower. If things like interesting characters or a workable plot preclude a film's being classified as such, then the answer to this thread's question is a forgone conclusion, isn't it?

If what makes a movie Christian is a trite and insipid shell of an excuse for proselytization that has no narrative, aesthetic, or artistic appeal... then "the problem with Christian Movies" is that they're Christian. But Christians hardly have a monopoly on worthless storytelling.

Personally, I think that others have spoken well by pointing out that any particular genre has its followers and detractors. I would rather force myself to vomit than be forced to sit through anything put out by The National Lampoon, for example (Chevy Chase is a favorite amongst many Christian males I know, BTW, for some reason).

So, in conclusion, Gillvane, since you started this thread, my theory is that "the problem with Christian filmmaking" is YOU.

It's that simple: Occam's razor, right?

 

[mainstreetprod]

Prior to Mom's night out, probably the funniest moment in a Christian film (Courageous) that I can remember:

Setup: Cop has a Hispanic friend in the back seat when he gets a call to pick up a gang member, decides to have the friend help "scare him straight"

 

[groveChuck]

https://vimeo.com/32974513
I know I've peddled this around before, but it's apropos of this conversation I think. What do people thinK? Preachy or off-putting? Overly sentimental? Proselytizing?

As a doc short, it's none of the above. It's a slice of life. Could have been made for / by anyone, from atheists to Zulus.
As for Gillvane's thread title, I would assume he's asking about narrative.

... it's like watching paint dry.

AKA quiet contemplation, or praying? Would it be more interesting if a 10-piece band was playing? That's how those people choose to live their lives. Not everyone, afterall, lives like you.

Now as for what's wrong with Christian filmmaking, I'm not sure. Could it be inherently boring to the outsider?

 

[j1clark@ucsd.edu]

"J1clark, it's got to be said. Your 'quotes' are 'out of control.' What's going on there? Did I miss the enclosing double-qoutes around your whole paragraph? Are you quoting yourself? Just using your fingers to make little claws in the air around certain words? I'm trying to picture you speaking to me in person, as written, and the resulting speech pattern is both 'hilarious' and 'confusing!'"

Occasionally I may miss an end quote, but quoted words are my indication that Ph. D. theses worth of 'words' may be used to debate the meaning of the word. For example we have a variety of definitions of 'christian' film in use by various posters. I'm not going to say I have The Definition of Christian Film for everyone, or even that at the moment I can give an exhaustive definition of my own use of the designator.

Just now someone quibbled with my use of the term 'porn' referring to any number of biblical stories or descriptions. I think of most of the Bible stories as log line type, which when expanded can be expanded in any visual direction. In the past these adaptations have not depicted detailed activities, either sexual or violent. However in the present there has been more realistic depictions of actual sex or violence.

"The Passion of the Christ"(2004) has been described as 'torture porn'... I don't think it is. I think it is perhaps a more accurate depiction of the process of a procession of abuse, and an execution by crucifixion that was popular in roman times. I'm sure there are some who think the Starz adaptation of the Spartacus story is both 'torture porn' (damn quotes again...) or just plain 'porn' (more quotes...) with the visuals of sex and naked bodies that the series visuals contain.

On the other hand, if someone's definition of 'porn' is any thing that could arouse a sexual response in some viewer somewhere, then sure... it's 'porn'...

 

[j1clark@ucsd.edu]

It's that simple: Occam's razor, right?

Occam's Razor is an assumption that the the simplest set of assumptions that support a hypothesis is what should be used until shown otherwise... some systems are complex, and that complexity may be the 'simplest' (damn quotes because I'm not going to try to give a general definition of 'simple' or that there is a function which can evaluate between sets of descriptions which will yield the 'simplest'...).

If what makes a movie Christian is a trite and insipid shell of an excuse for proselytization that has no narrative, aesthetic, or artistic appeal... then "the problem with Christian Movies" is that they're Christian. But Christians hardly have a monopoly on worthless storytelling.

I had wanted to see "Grace Unplugged"(2013) while it was still in theaters, since from the trailers it appeared to be a 'different' sort of film from the 'christian' films I have seen the trailers for. Unfortunately as with "Ender's Game"(2013) I'll have to wait till I buy the disks... anyway... "Grace Unplugged" has a Rotten Tomatoes rating of 43%...

I'll give an example from another visual art... painting. From the 13th to the 16th Centuries there was an explosion of art, especially church art. Major works which are listed in most art books today were made and displayed in the churches.

However, one of the main themes of the Protestant Reformation was the decadence of such works, along with other 'wealth' on display in churches, and after the formation of protestant churches, many protestant churches displayed no art, minimal art, or destroyed art works that had adorned a church. English Churches suffered from this 'censorship'.

The Catholic reaction in the form of various pronouncements of the Council of Trent, was to limit/censor church art. After the 16th the amount of major works of art found in churches declined to incredibly limited.

Such limitations almost necessarily end in 'inciped and trite'.

The same criticism can be leveled at 'Socialist Realism' of the various communist led countries of the 1930-80's, where in state sponsored art was heavily controlled and directed to show the benefits of 'socialism', that is propaganda.

Of course everyone can point to Eisenstein as a great film maker... but you know what... name one Russian filmmaker of the 40's and 50's... heck... after Eisenstein... and in the end his Ivan trilogy was never completed, with part III materials destroyed, and Part II only shown publicly years after his death.

I'll also give another example, "Jakob der Lügner". The book, written by an East German author Jurek Becker, was popular in East Germany, and a film was adapted in 1975. While the film did garner a Academy nomination of for Best Foreign Picture... I'm pretty sure the number of people in the US who have seen it is... vanishingly small...

On the other hand, "Jacob the Liar"(1990), a Hollywood production with Robin Williams in the lead role... much wider viewership...

While I laughed on many occasions while watching "Jacob the Liar"... "Jakob der Lügner" was... uh... 'educational'...

Why I'm using these sorts of examples is to show that very often the same material can be adapted in two ways, one of which leads, or has the potential for leading, to a wide audience and viewer appreciation... while the other plays to the choir.

I don't think the question 'what's wrong with christian films?' is asking 'how to make a film that plays better to the choir'.

 

[Gillvane]

I can't help but notice that our working definition of "Christian Movie" is getting narrower and narrower. If things like interesting characters or a workable plot preclude a film's being classified as such, then the answer to this thread's question is a forgone conclusion, isn't it?

If what makes a movie Christian is a trite and insipid shell of an excuse for proselytization that has no narrative, aesthetic, or artistic appeal... then "the problem with Christian Movies" is that they're Christian. But Christians hardly have a monopoly on worthless storytelling.

Personally, I think that others have spoken well by pointing out that any particular genre has its followers and detractors. I would rather force myself to vomit than be forced to sit through anything put out by The National Lampoon, for example (Chevy Chase is a favorite amongst many Christian males I know, BTW, for some reason).

So, in conclusion, Gillvane, since you started this thread, my theory is that "the problem with Christian filmmaking" is YOU.

It's that simple: Occam's razor, right?

I didn't write the article.

 

[Gillvane]

As a doc short, it's none of the above. It's a slice of life. Could have been made for / by anyone, from atheists to Zulus.
As for Gillvane's thread title, I would assume he's asking about narrative.



AKA quiet contemplation, or praying? Would it be more interesting if a 10-piece band was playing? That's how those people choose to live their lives. Not everyone, afterall, lives like you.

Now as for what's wrong with Christian filmmaking, I'm not sure. Could it be inherently boring to the outsider?

Someone might find watching quiet contemplation fascinating. That's great. I don't want or expect anyone to be like me. But I'm never going to be entertained by watching quiet contemplation. I liked Django. I watch The Walking Dead on AMC.

I think there are very different groups of Christians. I knew this woman and the only thing she ever wanted to talk about was the Bible. She only watched preachers on TV. Her radio was tuned into Christian music. All her friends were members of her very conservative Church. She did not have one close friend that wasn't the same denomination as her. She would definitely go watch a "Christian" movie.

However, if you broadened that definition of "Christian" movie, even a little bit, she would not go see it. I guarantee you she would not go see Noah. So I think you end up with a limit on your audience from the very start. The more you appeal to a mainstream audience, the more you lose a certain core audience.

 

[Gillvane]

There are a lot of different definitions of what a Christian movie is. If the definition is a movie that is made by Christians, about Christians and geared for Christians, this one meets that definition. If the definition is a movie that preaches a lot and someone gets saved, it doesn't. That's why it will appeal to a wider audience.

These days, more subtle Christian films are referred to as "faith based".

I just found it odd that this is a "Christian" movie, yet I saw nothing about that at all in the trailer. Is it THAT subtle? Or is this like some trailers where you see one movie in the trailer, and then get a VERY different movie when you go to the theater?

 

[mainstreetprod]

Someone might find watching quiet contemplation fascinating. That's great. I don't want or expect anyone to be like me. But I'm never going to be entertained by watching quiet contemplation. I liked Django. I watch The Walking Dead on AMC.

I think there are very different groups of Christians. I knew this woman and the only thing she ever wanted to talk about was the Bible. She only watched preachers on TV. Her radio was tuned into Christian music. All her friends were members of her very conservative Church. She did not have one close friend that wasn't the same denomination as her. She would definitely go watch a "Christian" movie.

However, if you broadened that definition of "Christian" movie, even a little bit, she would not go see it. I guarantee you she would not go see Noah. So I think you end up with a limit on your audience from the very start. The more you appeal to a mainstream audience, the more you lose a certain core audience.

Christians have a huge problem with movies like "Noah" because they hold the Bible to be a sacred text, and when filmmakers mess with that, departing from it almost completely in Noah's case, they won't go in any numbers. A movie like Mom's Night Out , while it may not preach to them as many faith based movies do, has a core message and nothing to offend them, so it can attract the Christian audience without losing the mainstream audience completely.

 

[mainstreetprod]

No, it's not a very different movie from the trailer. 5 minutes of a subtle sermon from the least likely character in the movie to deliver it, and the rest is entertainment.

 

[Gillvane]

No, it's not a very different movie from the trailer. 5 minutes of a subtle sermon from the least likely character in the movie to deliver it, and the rest is entertainment.

Well if it's a successful comedy and Christians like it as well as non-Christians, that's great.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheMoralSubstitute

"Can't you see? You're not making Christianity better, you're just making rock n' roll worse."— Hank Hill, King of the Hill

 

[firehawk]

Let me first say I am not against Christian film-making whether it's a pretend-to-be Christian film or a real one. I applaud them for trying. I applaud anyone with a good message or story to tell for trying to share it. It's not easy.

Now, part of what is normally wrong with said films are that they have an intention of sharing a message to people (as do many movies unless they are just mindless entertainment) yet don't succeed. Why?:
Secular masses see anything resembling a Christian movie (phoney or not) coming from a mile away and avoid it like a plague.
Boring and bad acting are common criticisms.
Said movies typically have predictable flat 1 dimensional stories and those do not interest the majority.
Said movies most always have very limited budgets so that means doing the best they can with production value and actors.
The studios, big actors, producers and distributers don't want to be involved with such films for various reasons. Anticipated financial gain being one reason.
Other reasons I cannot list here.

The only way I see how a genuine film of this category can really succeed in reaching masses is if it can do (not limited to) the following:
1. Have good multi-dimensional story telling. It will appear to be about XXXX yet really be about XXXX and more importantly XXXX. Many people won't understand the deeper meanings. What it seems to be about on the outermost level will be attractive to masses. Stephen J Cannell shows were sometimes good at this. It 'appears' to be about illegal gun bandits but isn't really about that at all...it's about self pride and the human condition...plus done in a comical and dramatic way. This is tricky because if it's a full strength film then the message cannot be compromised for the sake of appeal. This can be done. It takes good writers who understand humanity. Many will become engaged and then realize what's really happening only after they've been pierced by a deeper level.
2. Have relatable characters that people will connect with. Once people like a character they will follow along with, root for and actually learn from them wheras they will instantly reject a preacher if seen as a preacher especially if they don't like the character first.
3. Comedy is a good way to show serious matters. People will laugh and get drawn in before they realize what is going on.
4. The production value must be high enough so that it doens't look distractingly cheap
5. Don't brand it as a Chr****** film. Brand it as comedy-drama, drama, comedy, action-drama or whatever the story is about. If it's a light duty film it can be branded as family. It'll catch both audiences.

Edit: If there are any filmakers of this type that happen to read this I would be happy to talk to you

 

[Guest]

Number 5 on your list kind of defeats the point of a Christian film. A Christian film is just like all niche markets. They reach an intended select audience. They are never intended for the masses, except for the fact that there are many Christians. But they are intentionally branded as Christian films for whatever reason, be it the convictions of the makers, or the marketing sensibilities of the producers.

 

[mainstreetprod]

2. Have relatable characters that people will connect with. Once people like a character they will follow along with, root for and actually learn from them wheras they will instantly reject a preacher if seen as a preacher especially if they don't like the character first.
3. Comedy is a good way to show serious matters. People will laugh and get drawn in before they realize what is going on.
4. The production value must be high enough so that it doens't look distractingly cheap
5. Don't brand it as a Chr****** film. Brand it as comedy-drama, drama, comedy, action-drama or whatever the story is about. If it's a light duty film it can be branded as family. It'll catch both audiences.


I think "The Blind Side" with Sandra Bullock succeeded using this formula, and I think Mom's Night Out is about to (it's not being marketed as a Christian movie at all, I just know it is from being involved in the genre).

 

[Andrius Simutis]

Has anyone here seen The Invention of Lying?

 

[KyleProhaska]

As someone who's spent 7 years now in the faith-based arena and spent a ton of time studying it...Barry got it right many posts ago. It's a genre, with an audience who actually likes what they're getting.

 

[Brandon Rice]

Some may scratch their heads wondering why/how that audience actually wants what is produced... but Barry is right, and so is Kyle... That is precisely why I'm no longer interested in this particular genre... there is a very narrow space in which to operate creatively and content-wise. If you stray outside that space your film will bomb...