What's wrong with Christian filmmaking?

G

Gillvane

Veteran
This is not a discussion about religion, which I know is not allowed on this forum. This is a good article about why Christian films do not often make big box office and why Noah may do well at the box office, because it doesn't follow the formula of standard Christian film making.

To summarize, most Christian films are:

1. Safe
2. Predictable,
3. Preaching to the choir
4. Always wrapped up with a nice happy ending

http://thimblerigsark.wordpress.com/2014/03/25/whats-wrong-with-christian-filmmaking/

While this may appeal to a niche audience, it makes for generally boring story telling, and good movies need good stories.
 
Gillvane said:
This is not a discussion about religion, which I know is not allowed on this forum. This is a good article about why Christian films do not often make big box office and why Noah may do well at the box office, because it doesn't follow the formula of standard Christian film making.

To summarize, most Christian films are:

1. Safe
2. Predictable,
3. Preaching to the choir
4. Always wrapped up with a nice happy ending

http://thimblerigsark.wordpress.com/2014/03/25/whats-wrong-with-christian-filmmaking/

While this may appeal to a niche audience, it makes for generally boring story telling, and good movies need good stories.
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Well, making a film is always difficult, no matter who you are or who your audience is. Just look at hollywood films! Studios spend 100million and have access to all the best cinematographers, set designers, directors, talent, locations, tools, etc.... and they still f#$k it up 3/4 times. Hahaha. Making a good film, critically acclaimed versus just making $$$, is VERY hard. This is for any genre, maybe slasher horror being the exception.


Also, as you mentioned, they are a niche market and despite your beliefs, growing even more niche every year. So people are probably wanting to invest/produce films that have a higher chance of being distributed, which would be horror, drama, action, etc. When talking about low budget films, you need to get peoples attention to be noticed and bought. Movies with sex, violence, action, guns, etc tend to do better and sell. It's true.

Sure you can make a Christian film with these elements, but it seems that you run into a contradiction. If a Christian film were to be very edge, and possibly showing Christian values while also showing non-christian values, the film might turn off the core-christian audience that would otherwise support it. It's a fine edge of making a film to you core-base (Christians) while trying to make it appealing to non-Christians, who typically watch things of provoking nature. Now this is a hard concept to describe because now I am making non-christians sound like heathens only wanting to see people murdered on screen and titty filled sex scenes. Not true. However, violence and sex are in our media and are popular when done tastefully. However this is often lacking in Christian films (although I'm sure there are exceptions of people using very intense images to get their christian messages out there.)


That's about it, iMO

It boils down to 1) It's f@#king hard to make a good movie, no matter how little or how much money you have (more money helps though!) and 2) Few people want to finance a film that is statistically not able to sell to distributors. Make a bad horror film and you can likely sell it, if you have the right channels. Make a bad Christian drama, and see it die in some Christian VOD service.

My .02



And yes, most of the Christian films I have seen were terrible for the reasons you explained above. But I've seen about the same amount of garbage from any other genre. I think there is an untapped market in Christian films. I think Christians are very excited to get their messages out and if I had a good script that had subtle but powerful christian themes, I think in today's age of crowd sourcing, the Christian community is a rather giving and fresh pool to dip the ol' bucket it... for low budget films at least.
 
I agree with the article writer's opinion on 'christian' films. However, I don't limit that same criticism to 'christian' films, but most 'Hallmark' films, and most Hollywood films during the "Hays Code" era.

The aesthetics of film since the late 60's has been realism, in the sense that dialog should ring true, visual depictions should ring true.

Films made 'for TV', harken for the most part to the "Hays Code" limitations.

Some people think these 'restraints' lead to more 'creative' results. I don't think this is true in the least.
 
Ryan Patrick O'Hara said:
I think there is an untapped market in Christian films. I think Christians are very excited to get their messages out and if I had a good script that had subtle but powerful christian themes, I think in today's age of crowd sourcing, the Christian community is a rather giving and fresh pool to dip the ol' bucket it... for low budget films at least.
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If you follow the box office of "Son of God"(2014) over the last few weeks, the initial weekend did something like $25M, it then declined by about 1/2 each week there after. This was a 'rather wide' distribution of about 3000 theaters.

It is reported that "God's Not Dead"(2014) did about $8M on its opening weekend, in about 780 theaters. It apparently will be expanding to 1000+ theaters. I couldn't find budget details, but it's given as 'low budget'...
 
j1clark@ucsd.edu said:
I agree with the article writer's opinion on 'christian' films. However, I don't limit that same criticism to 'christian' films, but most 'Hallmark' films, and most Hollywood films during the "Hays Code" era.

The aesthetics of film since the late 60's has been realism, in the sense that dialog should ring true, visual depictions should ring true.

Films made 'for TV', harken for the most part to the "Hays Code" limitations.

Some people think these 'restraints' lead to more 'creative' results. I don't think this is true in the least.
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yes, that was my complaint about Shield, that compared to HBO series or AMC like Walking Dead, or Breaking Bad, True Blood, it just seemed so, well, network TV. Very safe and predictable. Like let's make a story about super heroes, and then just suck all the fun right out of the stories by making it bland!

http://abc.go.com/shows/marvels-agents-of-shield
 
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Ryan Patrick O'Hara said:
That's about it, iMO

It boils down to 1) It's f@#king hard to make a good movie, no matter how little or how much money you have (more money helps though!) and 2) Few people want to finance a film that is statistically not able to sell to distributors. Make a bad horror film and you can likely sell it, if you have the right channels. Make a bad Christian drama, and see it die in some Christian VOD service.

And yes, most of the Christian films I have seen were terrible for the reasons you explained above. But I've seen about the same amount of garbage from any other genre. I think there is an untapped market in Christian films. I think Christians are very excited to get their messages out and if I had a good script that had subtle but powerful christian themes, I think in today's age of crowd sourcing, the Christian community is a rather giving and fresh pool to dip the ol' bucket it... for low budget films at least.
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I don't think anyone will deny that it's hard to write and entertaining story and the make it into a good movie. The author of the article does give examples where it has been done with a Christian theme, examples such as CS Lewis' Narnia, and another one but I can't remember what it was. Anyway maybe I'm dense but I didn't see the whole "Christian Theme" in either of the movie. I get some of the explanations and they are plausible, but even if I watch it again I don't get any sort of Christian message. I just see a bunch of kids on an adventure with talking animals in a mildly entertaining movie.

I think that's another dilemma. If you get to creative with your "message" most people won't get it.

I mean, sure Aslan is killed and comes back to life, very messianic, but I just wrote it off to magic and didn't think much about any Christian message. Gandalf the Grey falls into the abyss and comes back as Gandalf the White. Messianic, or Christ imagery abounds in stories especially sci fi and fantasy, but it's rarely a "Christian message".

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MessianicArchetype
 
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Believe it or not, there is a market for those 'Hallmark'-type films. A large number of people simply don't want their movies gritty, steamy, sexy, raunchy, or filled with profanity or violence. If you like horror, action or sci-fi movies, then the 'Hallmark' movies are going to seem lame to you. That's fine. You're not their target audience. The people who are their target audience most likely don't think much of the kind of movies you like. And that's fine too.

Same can be said of 'Christian' movies. They won't appeal to everyone, any more than zombie movies or Kung Fu movies would. Why complain about that? The people who make Christian movies, by and large, aren't doing it to get rich. And the people who love watching Christian movies are out there hungry for more. Will Christian movies ever grab a large chunk of the market share? Maybe. Sometimes. As 'The Passion of the Christ' did. But for the most part, they are their own niche, and most Christian movie producers are content with that, I think.
 
Gillvane said:
I mean, sure Aslan is killed and comes back to life, very messianic, but I just wrote it off to magic and didn't think much about any Christian message. Gandalf the Grey falls into the abyss and comes back as Gandalf the White. Messianic, or Christ imagery abounds in stories especially sci fi and fantasy, but it's rarely a "Christian message".
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I think C. S. Lewis's 'christianity' is pretty clear... in the case of Tolkein... his 'catholicism' is not that obvious.

Every writer in a given culture will exhibit elements of that culture... I think in the case of Tolkein, his 'project' was to create a lack he saw in the English language, which was 'a body of mythology'. The descendants of the Norse people had Snorri Sturluson's writings, along with other writings. The 'germanic' people had sever similar sets of myths being handed down from ancient times... what do the English have... Beowulf... a story about Danish tribes... that just happens to be written in Ænglisc...

In the case of C. S. Lewis... he was writing with a 'message'.

One could also wax hermeneutic on the topic of the relationship between 'Battle Star Galactica' and 'The Book of Mormon'... since the originator of the show, Glen Larson, was/is an LDS member.

From the wiki
---
Originally, the series was intended to be called Adama's Ark, and the show incorporated many themes from Mormon theology, such as marriage for "time and eternity" and a "council of twelve."
---

The more recent 'reboots' have been done, I believe, without much of Larson's involvement.

But I'm pretty sure, most people would be blithely unaware of any 'Book of Mormon' connection in the least, since most people outside of LDC circles have not read the book.

While that is also true for a large number of people relative to The Bible, more of the biblical stories have been passed around than other religious systems in the US.
 
David W. Richardson said:
Believe it or not, there is a market for those 'Hallmark'-type films. A large number of people simply don't want their movies gritty, steamy, sexy, raunchy, or filled with profanity or violence. If you like horror, action or sci-fi movies, then the 'Hallmark' movies are going to seem lame to you. That's fine. You're not their target audience. The people who are their target audience most likely don't think much of the kind of movies you like. And that's fine too.
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Since TV is still a profitable activity, even for cable only channels... I can assume that there is a market sufficient to supply the demand.

The question is, if one element of 'making a christian film' is to spread the news, and it is packages such that only believers watch... then it has failed in the goal of 'spreading the news' beyond that believing group.

I'll give perhaps an oblique anecdote. A long time ago, in a galaxy far a way, I was at church 'social' for a presentation of a current 'hot' movie, "A Man For All Seasons"(1966) won 6 oscars, and was a 'christian' religious film, in the sense of depicting the life of Thomas Moore, who due to his religious beliefs came head to head with Henry VIII on the topic of of his divorce, and break with Rome, leading the Reformation in England.

Clearly the film was about 'belief and maintaining one's beliefs even in the face of the penalty of death'...

After the showing, I over heard one good christian lady express... 'Why did they select this film it was about Catholics'... her companion responded... 'Well I suppose it was about faith and standing firm on one's beliefs'... response... "too bad he was Catholic'...

The point being here... was if the film had selected a more 'protestant' person perhaps a Jan Hus... or some such... one can perhaps conjecture that while it would have been more acceptable to this 'good christian lady'... would it have gotten the same acclaims the Moore film.

I'm not a betting man... but I'll conjecture it would have played to the choir and that's about it.

Then there was a showing in a 'progressive' church during 'church service' of "Brother Sun, Sister Moon"(1972) and how that was 'received' by more conservative congregations of the denomination, at least those that knew of such...
 
Just thinking out loud here, but it's always seemed to me that any artistic endeavor can easily be corrupted by the artist's motivation. Wanna make a buck? The art will be very commercial. Wanna get a message out? It will be preachy. Want to defy the status quo? It's going to be a little edgy. Wanna please your audience? It's going to be played safe.
If you start the journey thinking that you're going to make a "Christian" film, then that's going to tend to be the prime motivation and influence the outcome. It's similar to how most music that starts out that way goes. It tends to be a little heavy handed in the preachy dept, while not taking too many chances musically. No wonder nobody outside the church circle listens to it. Don't think that I'm just picking on Christians, or even religious music. Lefty protest songs suck just as bad no matter how much I tend to agree with their message. Musicians that are in it foremost for the love of the music but also have a little bit of a bias tend to make a better end product. There's countless musicians from the Clash to Springsteen who incorporate the message of a cause into some of their work, but it's not the cause of their work.
Getting back to movies, I could stand to sit through a film where the protagonist's choice or action is influenced by his religion, but I'm not down for a entire movie about his religion. I know that can be a subtle difference, but it's the one to me that seeps into the rest of the process and can bring it down.
 
Andrius Simutis said:
I could stand to sit through a film where the protagonist's choice or action is influenced by his religion, but I'm not down for a entire movie about his religion.
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Andrius, can you sit through this?

https://vimeo.com/32974513

I know I've peddled this around before, but it's apropos of this conversation I think. What do people thinK? Preachy or off-putting? Overly sentimental? Proselytizing?

As to the question of why a film like this doesn't make it to the big time, well, I doubt that its Christian subject matter is what's holding it back ; )
 
Here's a major indepedent film by Spike Lee that is basically a typical religious film. It was marketed as a "Spike Lee Joint" to the general public, a limited release, and barely made it's budget back. Whereas, and what the blog emphasizes, NOAH has taken the biblical story and made it more mainstream so it would seem different than your typical religious film. So it's basically editing your story and script to better suit a wider audience, which is completely normal for any film, big or small.


Here's a company a friend of mine works with that produces short films and they include study guides and they are distributed to that niche market, but provide a much more flushed story than your typically preachy film.

http://www.ucemoviesthatmatter.com/
 
Finn Yarbrough said:
... I doubt that its Christian subject matter is what's holding it back ; )
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Well... of course not... and a 'christian' film as I think of it, in the context of this discussion is not simply a film with a 'christian' subject.

"Life of Brian"(1979) has some amount of 'christian' subject matter, such as the Jesus figure, the Crucifiction, etc. "Noah" as a story is 'shared' by Jews, Christians, and Muslims. As such many of the 'islamic' countries have banned the film, since it depicts biblical patriarchal figures. And of course, Aronofsky is of jewish ancestry...

One of the most successful of 'christian' films, as I would class it, in recent times, would be "The Passion of the Christ"(2009) which garnered some $611M world wide from BoxOfficeMojo. And need it be mentioned... was an 'R' rated film depicting 'R' rated violence...

In that regard, I'm not going to be seeing "Son of God"(2014), but would see, if it ever got made, Paul Verhoeven's "Jesus", if that's what his film project title ends up being.

Verhoeven is of course remembered for such films as "Robo Cop"(1987), "Total Recall"(1990), "Basic Instinct"(1992), and "Showgirls"(1995)...
 
Finn Yarbrough said:
Andrius, can you sit through this?

https://vimeo.com/32974513
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Sorry, I had to fast forward after a while. …but I've also got the attention span of a multitasking hyperactive Chihuahua today. Squirrel!
The shots are quite nice, and the subject is interesting, but for me it just lingered too long after getting the point across. Maybe I ruined it by reading the synopsis first?
Is it a religious piece or a documentary? I'd take it as more of a documentary as it doesn't pitch the religion or seem self congratulatory as so many religious pieces do. It's a nice look at something that I don't know much about, and I appreciate it for that. Overall good work, and like I said, I'm just too ADD right now to sit through anything more than two minutes long today. I don't think that the religious aspect of it has anything to do with this particular film's enjoyability. Did you consider it an example of "Christian filmmaking" when you made it?
 
Finn Yarbrough said:
Andrius, can you sit through this?

https://vimeo.com/32974513

I know I've peddled this around before, but it's apropos of this conversation I think. What do people thinK? Preachy or off-putting? Overly sentimental? Proselytizing?

As to the question of why a film like this doesn't make it to the big time, well, I doubt that its Christian subject matter is what's holding it back ; )
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I couldn't sit through 15 seconds. It looks nice enough, but it's like watching paint dry. It's one of those pieces that if I shot it and edited it, I'd be enthralled by each little shot of ice on a window pane or fungus on a stone, but since I didn't shoot it or edit it I'm just incredibly bored.
 
Andrius Simutis said:
Did you consider it an example of "Christian filmmaking" when you made it?
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Well, no, actually. In retrospect, however, yes.
And that might reinforce your point from earlier, that the motivation behind a film and its framework bleed through to the final result. We didn't make this piece with any kind of ultimate motive, other than to get a deeper look at this quiet weekly phenomenon that one might ordinarily miss.

To answer your other question, "is it a religious piece or a documentary," por que no los dos?
At one awards ceremony, I got to preside over a fairly sour debate over whether it really qualified as a documentary at all.
 
Andrius Simutis said:
Getting back to movies, I could stand to sit through a film where the protagonist's choice or action is influenced by his religion, but I'm not down for a entire movie about his religion. I know that can be a subtle difference, but it's the one to me that seeps into the rest of the process and can bring it down.
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I think that hits the nail on the head right there. If you make a move that's out to proselytize, or to document a religion, any religion, it's going to be as enthralling as watching grass grow to someone not already a member of the flock so to speak.

But give me a great compelling story that has nothing to do with religion, but the main character is driven by his or her religion, any religion, and yea that could definitely work.

Although, it didn't work in Joan of Ark. I found that one pretty boring.

Another example could be the Book of Eli. It wasn't great, but it was pretty good.
 
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