What's the rule of thumb for this reverb scenario?

I

ironpony

Carbonite Member
In movies, a lot of times, if someone is about maybe 10 or more feet away from someone, they will make it sound like he is further away, compared to say under 10 feet. But how do I know when I should make someone sound farther away? This scene for example from a Bond movie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSUR050VECM

I don't think they are doing anything to make Bond sound like he is at a different distance from Kerim Bay, but perhaps they are? Are they and it's just subtle, or is the general rule, that you need more space in between characters, before you add a different reverb for that?
 
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All the dialogue for that was probably recorded on a sound stage or ADR and it's all down to personal taste and how the dubbing mixer and director wishes to treat it, older movies tend to have a lot more sound stage dialogue as the camera's and associated blimps and grip kit were the size of a small car.

No hard and fast rules and it all depends on how you want to make it sound, I personally prefer a naturalistic sound stage but that is more of a modern british take on things.

Main rule of thumb though is to try and get all the dialogue as clean as possible as you can always add perspective and sound effects to it later.
 
Okay thanks. What if I want to add to perspective on set though? Their is often a lot to do in post, so I prefer to get as much of the work done set as possible, if that's okay. Some people prefer to record flat, and shoot in a very flat way with the camera, then add things later, but is it okay, to get the perspective on set, if I know what I want?
 
It is not a good idea to try and do it on set as you will probably find that when you edit it together it does not work.

There are no short cuts in good audio and whilst you can record on a location with natural room ambience to try and do correct perspective before a dub or edit is just asking for trouble!

I have done dramas in the traditional manner where you do a wide master shot with perspective to match and then close up single shots of each line but you need to make sure your actors are good and that the lines will cut together, you can also cheat reverse cuts to make the dialogue flow between takes but it all takes care and skill!

You will also probably find that trying to do it on set and break the rules you end up spending more time post sorting it all out or having to re-shoot!

The way to do dialogue has been set in stone for decades so why try and re-invent the wheels as you will just end up with an inferior sound track that you can not change or work with any further!
 
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I wrote a review for the QL Spaces impulse reverb a while back, and they gave me a year's license. I used it primarily for music but played with it for dialogue experiments - it was very, very realistic for giving a sense of distance on wide shots, etc. A tiny bit went a very long way. It's one gorgeous plugin though. Luscious.
 
It is a nightmare (as Gary says) to try to edit with sound that has different tonal qualities - you cut down loads of edit options. Wherever you can always get the cleanest audio you can. More distant audio is always going to lack clarity, so is for emergencies only!
 
That dialog was either done close up on a sound stage or ADR'd afterward. There is some perspective diferences but I'm sure that was acidental. You have to remember that the sound was edited on 35mm magnetic film, there was nothing but mixing and some EQ to clean up tracks and there were not many tracks. Also no mix automation or starting and stopping or rewinding so a reel (10 - 20 minutes) was mixed in one continuos take in real time. If you didn't like it you had to remix the entire reel again. So a lot of times you settled for mixes that had some problems because remixing ment doing it all over and hoping you ended up with something you liked better.

Part of why you want to do any "distancing" in post is that you can make something farther away but you really can't make it sound closer.
 
Okay thanks. I know it cuts down on options, but the thing is is no one where I lives knows anything about making people sound like they are further away. Their are people who are audio engineers, who I have worked with and people wanting to learn, but they are completely music trained. When it comes to making movies, they are just as stumped as I am. I tried learning myself on how to distance people in post and all that, but we've tried expirementing with programs like Pro Tools and Adobe Audition, since July of last year, and we still haven't figured out how to make it sound right.

So I would do it if we could figure out how, but it's been months and we would like to get started on a new short film already. We tried submitting a short and we were told the video and editing was great, just that the sound doesn't sound like people are different distances apart and everyone sounds completely close up, when they are not in the picture.

So we would love to do it the proper way, but none of us can figure out how, and we would like to get started on another project. That's why I am trying to circumvent it. I figure if director's can plan master shots, and close ups in preproduction, why not plan the master shots for sounds, and the close ups for sounds in pre production as well. I realize it's limiting my options, but I don't know what to do since we have no one with such knowledge on our team.
 
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People who make music ought to know all about this kind of thing - because it really isn't that different from picking the right mic and position for a singer, is it? It does seem that in this fast evolving digital technical world, the real problem is analogue ears!
 
There is a very basic practice that if you make the perspective match the shot it should be fine, you can do this on location but you also need to make sure that you cover all aspects visually so it will all cut together.

I have done numerous films with no more than a shotgun mic such as the sennheiser 416 or an AT875r on a boom and straight into a nagra recorder or more recently my panasonic camera.

Basic shooting techniques also come into play but if you follow the rules that have been defined for decades then it should be fairly simple, you also need pre production planning and a storyboard of shots that you need but the basic principle of master wide and single close or mid shot cutaways for each actor should.mean you have enough coverage to suit all perspectives.

You can cheat things in post using small room or digital reverb simulators but if you don't follow the basic principles of shooting in the first place it will not work in post anyway.

Adding stereo background effects can also depth to a scene but we are talking sound dubbing here and if you cut corners then you will not get the desired results.

Sound recording and dubbing is a skilled job but if you use people who don't know or understand the principles then you are asking for trouble in post and there are loads of books and articles on the subjects but if people can't be bothered to read and understand them or try to re-invent the wheels of production then you will always have a compromised result!
 
P.S I always use this short we did for Knayhaven films as an example.

It was shot with one mic the AT875r on a gitzo carbon fibre boom and an xlr cable straight into the back of a panasonic HPX371 P2 camera.

I was the DOP but also monitored the audio going into the camera, the boom op was a graduate as was the direector and producer/writer but they came with a full shooting script and we pretty much followed it to schedule over the six day shoot.

http://vimeo.com/44760907

All the dialogue is as recorded on location with just some stereo backgrounds and spot effects added in the edit and post where the music was also fitted!
All the reverb or ambience is as recorded and we did no acoustic treatment to any of the locations.
Pre planning and keep it simple has always been my personal rule of thumb!
 
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It depends on what you want it to end up sounding like. You will find lots of "I did X and it sounded fine". Go listen to their films and see if it sounds fine to you. If it does you are golden, I generally listen and find my self wondering if they actually listened to their film.

As to putting sounds in perspective. If all else fails worldize. Take your clean sound and send it through a good speaker in a location that sounds like the way your film looks (often this means just putting it out side or down the hall) and rerecord it.

It doesn't matter how much time you spent before shooting the film after the edit is not the one you had in your mind when you shot it. You WILL have to make picture choices you wouldn't have made IF your sound is locked into fixed perspectives.

And just go shoot the film. Don't spend too much, it's a learning experience.
 
Okay thanks. A few months ago I made a thread about speakers but did not have the money for some really good ones. Now I do. What's a good pair for re-recording? Is $400 enough or do I need to spend more?
 
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Personally I use Dynaudio BM10's with a 10 inch sub bass but I am sure other people will make suggestions, you can get something for $400 but as usual it all depends at what level of production you are working at.

Best start another thread or do a search as this subject has been covered numerous times.
 
I got a pair of behringer truth 2031a monitors on recommendation from a friend. $300 for the pair. Do not have a sub woofer.
 
I believe the sub is for lower frequencies than a regular speaker can handle nothing to do with surround. It for hearing what your lower bass frequencies are doing so you dont mix them incorrectly and seem foolish when your movie plays on a higher end system that can play those frequencoes as well.
 
Yes I have a sub to extend my small nearfield monitors in the bass frequency range, surround is a different thing altogether.

You may not need a sub bass unit at this stage but can add one later if you wish.
 
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