What's the difference between the Ninja/Samuri and the Ki Pro Mini?

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What's the difference between the Ninja/Samuri and the Ki Pro Mini?


From what I've read, the Ki Pro Mini is twice the price of the Ninja, but it does exactly the same thing. They both transcode in real time whatever native codec to uncompressed, 10 Bit 4:2:2 to ProRes.

However, the Ninja and Samuri also have a view / playback screen, but the Ki Pro Mini does not...

The Ninj and Samuri use external SSDs and the Ki Pro Mini uses CF.

So why is Ki Pro Mini so much more? Shouldn't it cost less than the Atmos options? Is one better than the other? ANy bad experiences with either of them?
 
So I just spoke to a rep at AJA and he said that the reason Ki Pro Mini cost more is because they are professional level products. I don't know if this is just a marketing term or if there is any validity to the claim.

Also, he mentioned that the Ki Pro Mini compress the files to ProRes whereas the Atomos website claims that there files are uncompressed. What does this mean? I though that by transcoding you are by definition compressing the files. Therefore, how can any external recorder such as the Ninja, Ki Pro or Gemini output uncompressed ProRes Files?

Lastly, the AJA rep told me that the F3 isn't giving you true 4:2:2 due to the fact that it compresses everything via MPEG-2 onto SxS cards. So he said that with the compression it becomes only 4:2:0, unless you have Ki Pro or an eternal recorder of some type...

How is it possible that Atomos Ninja can give uncompressed, 10 Bit 4:2:2 ProRes at half the price of Ki Pro Mini?
 
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You hit on several issues and differing questions. Most you'd find by searching a little more but might not understand.

The Ninja is HDMI only. It doesn't have professional standard HD-SDI connections. HDMI works but is more fragile.

The Samurai is HD-SDI only. It doens't have HDMI connections if you want to connect to an HD TV for the client to watch while filming, or and HDMI EVF, etc. It does have impressive low power usage.

Atomos products are nice, and some people like the monitor, but I don't do any serious monitoring of HD images on a standard definition monitor. You can pull focus, but there is room for error, which can jump up and bite you at the worst times. They also have touch screens. Some people hate touch screens.

The Ki Pro Mini can input both and out put both. It has real buttons and knobs.

All three record to Pro Res. DNx is coming later. Atomos will charge extra for the DNx upgrade, supposedly AJA won't.

The Gemini records uncompressed files that gobble a huge amount of drive space. Transcoding to some compression later on works but takes time. Time is money.

I'm sure there are other differences.
 
I have used the Ki-Pro and the difficulty with batteries, mounting etc... killed it for me. I test drove the Samarai last week and am convinced enough that I bought one. It will ne here Monday. As far as the Ninja my only real beef with it is the HDMI in. I do not believe that HDMI plugs are beefy enough or reliable enough to trust my data to. I alway think about how sketchy the HDMI plugs are on 7D's and it makes me nervous.
 
Duke M. said:
All three record to Pro Res. DNx is coming later. Atomos will charge extra for the DNx upgrade, supposedly AJA won't.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the detailed response.

Can you please clarify whether or not Ninja/Samuri is uncompressed?

What I don't understand is that the AJA rep told me that by recording to ProRes, you are by definition compressing! Therefore, there will always be loss. The Ki Pro Mini will compress to ProRes, it's just that ProRes is so much better than M-PEG2 so it's worth it...

However, if Atomos were truly recording to uncompressed 4:2:2 ProRes, wouldn't it be better than the Ki Pro Mini's compressed 4:2:2?

This is really confusing me...
 
There's reduced horizontal resolution by 1/2 recording in 4:2:2 and PRORES compresses the signal but many consider it to be almost as good as uncompressed. To record uncompressed with full chroma resolution you have to go to a 4:4:4 recorder.
Blackmagic Shuttle does record uncompressed but still 4:2:2 since one HD SDI can only carry 4:2:2 at maximum. I see little to gain recording in 4:2:2 uncompressed compared to PRORES or DNxHD in high bitrate.
 
I think I understand what Atomos means now when they say that they record 10 Bit 4:2:2 uncompressed. They mean that it's coming from the F3 uncompressed and that once it hits the Ninja/Samuri, it is compressed into ProRes. Their wording is confusing because they say:
  • Recording direct to Apple ProRes via HDMI - pristine HD uncompressed video from camara lens and sensor directly to Apple ProRes via HDM
It's doubly confusing because Gemini actually does record the data uncompressed and keeps it uncompressed until you tell it what to compress/transcode if I understand it correctly.
 
The camera output through SDI is uncompressed 10bit. There was some controversy over whether the HDMI was 8bit or 10bit. I've heard both ways but never tested it.

As I said earlier all three, ninja samurai and KPM record prores. There are different flavors and different implementations but for HQ there shouldn't be much difference.

The KPM does seem to require a higher voltage so the batteries run down to an unusable range earlier. Still its not hard to swap out batteries. None of the recorders will run all day, so for super long recordings your looking at an external pack or an AC connection.

Gemini is the only one of the less expensive truly portable recorders that does 4.4.4 AFAIK. The Gemini can't compress. You have to do that separately in your computer.

All of these recorders are recent releases and still having growing pains needing further firmware updates.
 
Another thing you must consider is that because DPX is a stills sequence, there is no audio. At the moment the Gemini does not record audio, so I record both in camera with audio plus the DPX files on the Gemini.

Above is a quote form Alister Chapman. From an article titled "A month with a Gemini" which can be found on his blog.

Look around his blog. Chapman reviews some other recording devices. It may be useful to you.
 
Atomos site is a bit misleading with some of their claims and the way how information are written. Intermediate codes are not uncompressed or lossless- they are all lossy, but at very low level. It's has been established to call them "visually lossless"- which I would define as not seeing difference on 1:1 frame compared to uncompressed. This does not mean that there is no difference- zoom into frame and you will start seeing, that there is difference, so calling them uncompressed or lossless is misleading and not true at all.

All recorders have their good and bad points and then..... there is Cinedeck, which is the best. It was the first small disk recorder and currently it has amazing features and it's ahead of competition- offers all, what all others can do together. It costs 9K Euros, but this is the only problem :)

If it come to codecs- ProRes is bit better than DNxHD. DNxHD with some very difficult/noisy video can introduce macroblocking- ProRes is bit more resistant due to its VBR nature. They compress at about 5:1 ration and this is very good compromise between size and quality. It's below HDCAM-SR (440Mbit mode), but good enough for many projects. If you need more quality, but not uncompressed, than gain- Cinedeck is your friend. Compared to others it also uses Cineform codec, which has higher quality modes (compared to ProRes or DNxHD)- bitrate rises to 250-400Mbit, but quality matches or even goes above HDCAM-SR. Cineform currently offers the best quality of all intermediate codecs- the closest one is GrasValley HQX codec used in Edius software, but there are no recorders which use it.
 
kolak said:
Atomos site is a bit misleading with some of their claims and the way how information are written. Intermediate codes are not uncompressed or lossless- they are all lossy, but at very low level. It's has been established to call them "visually lossless"- which I would define as not seeing difference on 1:1 frame compared to uncompressed. This does not mean that there is no difference- zoom into frame and you will start seeing, that there is difference, so calling them uncompressed or lossless is misleading and not true at all.

All recorders have their good and bad points and then..... there is Cinedeck, which is the best. It was the first small disk recorder and currently it has amazing features and it's ahead of competition- offers all, what all others can do together. It costs 9K Euros, but this is the only problem :)

If it come to codecs- ProRes is bit better than DNxHD. DNxHD with some very difficult/noisy video can introduce macroblocking- ProRes is bit more resistant due to its VBR nature. They compress at about 5:1 ration and this is very good compromise between size and quality. It's below HDCAM-SR (440Mbit mode), but good enough for many projects. If you need more quality, but not uncompressed, than gain- Cinedeck is your friend. Compared to others it also uses Cineform codec, which has higher quality modes (compared to ProRes or DNxHD)- bitrate rises to 250-400Mbit, but quality matches or even goes above HDCAM-SR. Cineform currently offers the best quality of all intermediate codecs- the closest one is GrasValley HQX codec used in Edius software, but there are no recorders which use it.
Click to expand...

Comparing an $11,700 recorder to a $1495.00 really seems kind of pointless. Of course the Cinedeck is better but at 9.5 times the price most people here will pass.
 
I'm not really comparing, because as you said- it makes not much sense. 2 different markets.
You can compare Atomos, KPM, BM Shuttle and some other, like Nano.
Any other recorder which uses eg. MPEG2 or JPEG2000 at decent bitrate (100Mbit+) will also offer good enough quality in most cases and can be considered if price is good. The only issue can be editing, but no need to use old, slow FCP- there are way more efficient solutions.
 
I tested the Ninja, Samurai and the Ki Pro Mini. They all record the same quality in video, you can even do an image subtraction of the same shot (I fed them identical signals) and it will be all black. Identical, period. It seems Apple is quite strict on implementation of their codec.

That said, there are still some advantages and disadvantages:
– Ninja and Samurai make very good use of power, need no fan and stay completely silent with a SSD.
– Ki Pro Mini has a fan, not very loud but sometimes a problem in tight areas. It is running quite hot nevertheless, the cards are really hot when taken out.
– Ki Pro Mini has a sturdier build and a professional audio section.
– Media for Ki Pro Mini is expensive, not used to the max and not spanning, sometimes not even working reliably. Bummer!

IMHO there is no reason to buy a Ki Pro Mini if you are recording separate audio. I was very disappointed by the reliability for the price in the beginning, I was used to much better quality and customer care from AJA. It became a bit better after firmware updates, but the Ninja is still ahead. We have used it for half a year now, and it never went down on us.
 
I also gave up on the KiPro mini... all the units I had were simply too unreliable with serious heat issues and unacceptable boot times. Shame, because the customer service from AJA was superb. If you're in the price range of the KPM, why not take a look at the PIX 220/240 ? Very impressive and totally reliable for me so far, uses much cheaper SSD's as well.
 
nomad-3 said:
I tested the Ninja, Samurai and the Ki Pro Mini. They all record the same quality in video, you can even do an image subtraction of the same shot (I fed them identical signals) and it will be all black. Identical, period. It seems Apple is quite strict on implementation of their codec.
Click to expand...

This is very true- Apple is very strict with licensing ProRes- they verify your implementation and have to approve it.
 
PaulReam said:
I also gave up on the KiPro mini... all the units I had were simply too unreliable with serious heat issues and unacceptable boot times. Shame, because the customer service from AJA was superb. If you're in the price range of the KPM, why not take a look at the PIX 220/240 ? Very impressive and totally reliable for me so far, uses much cheaper SSD's as well.
Click to expand...

Can't you simply buy SSD by yourself and put it into AJA case. Are they not standards SSD with SATA connection? I hate when company uses "normal drive", but than puts it into some case and charge you 2x more- these day it's unacceptable. This is why I like Atomos. Another thing- if you not going to do really crazy movements with camera you can always get 2.5" Scorpio Black 750GB- big (compared to SSD), way fast enough for ProRes an very good with shock handling (just above 100Euro).
 
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kolak said:
Can't you simply buy SSD by yourself and put it into AJA case. Are they not standards SSD with SATA connection?
Click to expand...
The KiPro mini only uses Compact Flash Cards... no SSD's or HD's at all.

I'll only use the recommended Samsung SSD's for paid jobs with the PIX, but I've also experimented with various HD's and SSD's. Surprisingly, I've yet to find any 2.5" Sata drive that won't work at 145Mb/s ProRes 4:2:2 !!!
 
The price of the Ki Pro Mini is now down to $1,995.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/735435-REG/AJA_KI_PRO_MINI_R0_Ki_Pro_Mini_Compact.html
A Samurai costs about $1,600 now.

Paul, you must have had really bad luck. My KPM gets warm, but not to the point of unreliability. And if you were hearing the fan (they all have fans by the way) it sounds like a piece of paper or something was impeding the fan. Maybe an unbalanced fan. That's a shame you had such bad luck.

Jon said they're working on the spanning/roll over and since they are a bigger older company I don't doubt they'll enable that. These recorders are all new releases and all have issues. The Samurai implementation of DNx has macro blocking, but I'm sure they'll fix that too. I expect lots of new firmware for all these recorders.

The KPM does offer other advantages. As you noted it has the audio set up. If you want to run a HDMI EVF at the same time a KPM simplifies life.

Dual balanced XLR input (the others don't have balanced input)
Two way professional quality HDMI to SDI and SDI to HDMI converter. (The AJA HA5 which does the same conversion costs $500 alone.)
Professional audio controls
Professional Up and down conversion

Sandisk Extreme Pro 32Gb cards are down to $169. Transcend 600x are $155.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/searc...andisk+extreme+pro+32gb&N=0&InitialSearch=yes

A pocket full of CF cards I can do. A pocket full of SSDs, not so much. Sometimes an SSD can be an advantage, like recording a concert. However, get a glitch and you can lose everything (the same reason I only go to 32Gb max on SD cards in the camera.)

Still, the thrifty use of power by the Samurai and the Nanoflash is enviable. The Nano is the smallest and most reliable of the lot. If it could have been converted to 10 bit I'd have kept it.
 
Hi Duke,

you are right about the audio section and HDMI/SDI converter.

But the Ninja and Samurai have no fan at all and stay cool.

Regarding firmware updates: we got both the Ninja and the KPM at the same time. In the meanwhile Atomos fixed all issues they had in the beginning, but AJA has not even fixed the spanning issue (sometimes even manually switchover is difficult).

Regarding cards: Transcend is not qualified by AJA. We tried to use one nevertheless, but the KPM literally killed it – bricked card.

Regarding reliability: to make sure they are production safe, we tried pulling power or HDMI on both, since this can happen in the heat of a real production. The KPM ruined the whole recording, since it writes one file only. The Ninja always kept everything till the last frame most of the time, only in rare cases the last 2 GB chunk was ruined (it records in FAT32). That makes the large media in the Ninja more reliable than the small ones in KPM for me. And i have a large choice of media, spinning or not, which I can put in their cheap cradles by myself, so the price per GB is much better than for the KPM.

BTW, we tried two units of KPM, since we thought the first one was faulty. This has been the worst experience I ever had with an AJA product, before I was a satisfied customer for years.

Sorry, to sound so negative, but for us in hindsight the KPM was a waste of money. We needed something for SDI before the Samurai was ready.
 
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