What would you use for Run n Gun Docco that will be shown in Cinemas???

T

tankbullock

Active member
I am making a pretty High profile Documentary that will have a limited Cinema release and then go out on BluRay and DVD and am looking for the ultimate do it all camera to shoot the on the move handheld footage single handed.

I own a Sony F3 with a set of manual Nikon lenses with the SLog firmware but as I am going to. Be in charge of everything myself (no focus puller) I am a little concerned that at times when I need to 'run n gun', I may come unstuck especially with focus and so wonder whether a camera like pmw350k/ex3/ex1r (with a samurai) would stand up on the big screen???

The F3 will be used on a tripod throughout the shoot I just need something that can autofocus at times and be good on the hoof so I don't end up with egg on my face. But would need it to stand up quality wise.

Any advice would be most welcome.
 
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Good idea. I'm testing a few cameras next Friday so I'll pass on any revelations. I'll also follow your thread.

I'm leaning towards the Samurai myself as it seems the teething problems are finally sorted. I like you would love to shoot it on F3's if my hands can run the whole show!
 
Well, I'll put my two cents in. I am primarily a run and gun doc shooter. I love my EX3 for this because it is small enough to jump in and out of cars, carry all day, the batteries last a long time, and the eyepiece is so clear I can see the emotions on people's faces. If you are concerned about the codec, a small recorder can easily be attached to the side. (like the Ki Pro Mini or maybe the Ninja or something like that.) It has a slightly larger chip than most of the small cameras, which helps with a shallower depth of field, but not too shallow for following action.
Also, it is very good in low light, which is essential.
I use a small, cheap brace because it is slightly front heavy. I use a small lite panel on top which I fold down when I don't need it. And I have various plans for attaching the wireless receivers for sound depending on who I'm working with. I like it when the camera is self contained, because there is less chance of catching wires on doorknobs, chairs, etc. I also use bluetooth headphones to listen, which is great so I don't have to fight the headphone cable. There is a delay, but I like it because I know that I am hearing the camera.
I can, and have, shot for many long days with this rig. It's simple enough so that I can 'keep my head in the game', and not have to struggle with gear when **** gets real.
(Also, as an aside, I have shot with the 350 and HATE HATE HATE it. The eyepiece is horrible, and it doesn't have 'steady shot'.)
 
Thanks for the feedback. You are the first person I've heard from who doesn't like the 350. I grew up on ex1/3 style cameras so would love it if that was the answer but the feedback and reviews out there on the 350 are so positive I have to at least throw it up on my shoulder to see what all the fuss is about.

I was under the impression that the screen/eyepiece on the 350 and ex3 were the same. Is this not the case?
 
The eyepieces are not the same, the 350 has the ENG style eyepiece with the mirror.
I came up shooting with the large betacam style/ shoulder mount cameras, and some of them were great to hold.
The 350, however, is weirdly difficult to use. I haven't had the time to ponder why, I just know that everytime I have shot with it I wanted to
throw it on the ground in disgust.
The only technical advantages that I can figure for the 350 over the EX3 is a very slightly bigger chip, 2/3" over 1/2", and 4 channels of audio.
It's just not worth it to me. I have been in enough situations to know that if I miss the 'moment' because I'm fighting the camera, it doesn't matter
how technically superior the camera is on paper, the story won't get told, and I have failed to do my job.
 
Thanks for the info Dana. I defo don't want to be missing anything I could have shot due to having the wrong camera on my shoulder.

I am leaning towards the EX3 as it seems like it does cover all bases. My only reservation really is how responsive the autofocus is (when required) as the Ex1r I tried a few months back was slightly sluggish, it always got there but sometimes took its time. Sorry to ask you yet more questions but can you say how your EX3 performs in that regard?
 
Does the 500 autofocus? I had been told (maybe wrongly) only the 350 and it's kit lens autofocused in the Sony 2/3" lineup. Would love the 422 codec though.

Same position I always end up in, I need the 'Frankenstein Ex3' with 2/3" sensor and 422 codec from the 500.
 
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I don't use the autofocus on the EX3, but I frequently use the 'magnifier' (focus assist? I think it's officially called) on the handgrip. It blows up the image in the eyepiece so I can see the focus and I can fine tune it. I used to use the auto focus a lot on the small box cameras such as the DVX100 because I wouldn't be able to hold the camera up to my face and would shoot and frame using the flip out monitor. The buttons were too small to hit quickly enough, and so I let the focus do its thing and would move around instead of zooming usually.
But this is one reason I really like the EX3, it allows me to shoot in a more film camera way, with the eyepiece up to my face, and my left hand supporting the lens and working the focus.
I will say there are quite a few options to the focus capability, you will have to find what works for you. I have found that I have to keep the macro function on because the mininium focus was too far for me. (This doesn't work in the full manual mode, only the manual with no markings.) I find I am shooting people or objects within 3 or 4 feet quite a bit. The focus ring slides back to engage the manual focus with markings, and forward to engage the auto focus or manual with no markings. There is also a 'MF assist' in the menu, and when that is on the camera will try to help with focus even when in manual focus. I find it irritating. There is also a button to hit for help called PUSH AF, which turns on the auto focus briefly, but the problem with that is the camera decides when to turn off the auto focus which can be quickly or slowly, no telling.
Also, don't be afraid of peaking, when that is properly adjusted it is a huge help, I look at people's hair or clothes for that telltale white line.
 
I just had a chance to try out an EX3 for an hour. Was very impressed. It is as you say Dana, pretty intuitive to focus on the move and the focus aids are very comprehensive. Wow, that viewfinder makes a difference too. The shoulder pad is great for portability but I think I would get achey breaky arm after a while so I would need a little more support but overall it's a great fit.

I did find out that Macro needed to be on as like you say, it is a little to far away, but once setup for my needs it all seemed to fall into place as you had prophesised.

I'm still going to try a full shoulder mount cam just to be thorough but the little EX3 will take some topping.
 
I got used to using the Steady Stick (modified without the handle) with the small cameras. It puts the weight on my hip and leaves my hands freer to push buttons.
It can also hang by my side when I don't need it. Simple, and quick. Works great with the EX3, IMHO.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/210200-REG/Davis_Sanford_SS3C_Steady_Stick_Compact.html

This is a brace that others have used with the EX3 with much success: I like it a lot, but have become too used to my Steady Stick!
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=smith+victor+cs-1&N=0&InitialSearch=yes
 
Well, they are hard to find now, I bought the last pair on Ebay.
3qxX58H5RbvTdlBgRKHWgqwMLhqNsRClMoy3PItAIHMZzZK0IDQHt53JOOGVoGF3eUygZgU9BYgcMgX8HAc8KwL8DlLXUEAgRASNwiHfF2mQItIiAEbhFoKyYIRAiAkbgEO+KtckQaBEBI3CLQFkxQyBEBIzAId4Va5Mh0CICvwDfHcZGNbTI4gAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==
Logitech Freepulse.
They are thin enough so they don't smash my ear into the camera.
Also, tankbullock, if you go with the EX3, I put the cheekplate on my camera which comes with the camera but it is not installed. I don't know if people normally put them on the camera but I really like it. It is a piece of flat plastic that you can use to hold the camera against your head. I also use it to hold the sound receiver sometimes.
Dana
 
Thanks Dana. That sound like a valuable little addition!

On a slightly different tack, Ive been going thru some footage I shot and alot of it seems to have fair levels of noise. This is on indoor and outdoor. Nothing really harsh but a definite texture. I did have AGC on for a few shots but then turned it off. It still seemed to be there.

Are there any optimal settings (or the reverse that cause noise) that can combat this?
 
As far as I know, (not having seen the footage), two things can cause noise. Are you sure your gain was at 0 db?
I have this goofy checklist thing that I made up for my students:
Why Should Nerds Go Into Film?
White Balance, Shutter, ND, Gain, Iris, Focus.
And I have read that certain gamma settings are noisier than others.
You will probably want to use Cine Gamma 3 or 4, which will look a little darker than you may be used to, but it protects the highlights
for going back and timing it later in post.
 
As ever, thanks for your help Dana. I think I have located the problem being the playback engine on my computer rather than actually being inherent in the footage. Once imported into my fast Mac Pro via XDCam transfer it was all hunky dory.

I did my tests today (comparing Ex3, PMW350, XF305) to help make the final decision and the EX3 came out the winner as i had been expecting/hoping. The 350 is a little cleaner but like an ocean liner plus it would then need more lifeboats attaching to it to record at 10bit, the XF305 has small chips, poor lowlight and a poop viewfinder. The EX3 really is a stunning package. I know it has been out a while and I'm sure the EX3R/EX4 will probably get announced tonight but there will be no buyers remorse from this end.

I tried it atop a Protech ST7 shoulder mount which was fantastic to. Seemed custom built for the camera. The Nanoflash is Favourite for Ext recording but OMG, Not Cheap! If anyone knows of another recorder that can be powered from a V type battery and record to at least 50mbps 422 I would love to hear about it.
 
Thanks for that. Nice to see all the specs in one place.

I think it will be a choice between the Samurai and the Nanoflash but I will check out the Ki Pro Mini and Hyperdeck Shuttle too. Hopefully we'll do a full side by side comparison this week and see which works best on the EX3 and F3 for our needs.
 
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