What Outdoor/Indoors settings for NEX VG 20?

C

Crye

Member
My videos often look grainy under the least under-exposure. I know lighting counts, but I also heard a tutor talk of IRIS setting being too large. I'm interested in knowing popular settings for typical day/night, outdoor/indoor shoots in normal weather/conditions. I know it will always depend, but as an entrant, just knowing approximate IRIS etc values will put me closer to understanding these.

I can't fix my noisy video until I get Neat Video plugin etc, so I wanna be able to fix this problem and capture nice to begin with. What should I be tweaking before a shoot please?

Thanks in advance.
 
On the VG20, you need to make sure your 'gain' is set to manual If it's not,
the camera will often gain up automatically, which will give you grainy video.
 
Crye said:
alaskacameradude...thank you. Going to check that now. I was wondering if there's a recommended group specific to these NEX VG cams? ie people who work with them?
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I just finished a feature (GHOST PUNCHER) using primary a VG20. They're not for everyone, but if you can figure out a way to record sound (either with a 1/8" phantom mic) or separately, it's a wonderful run and gun camera. Batteries last forever, it's relatively easy to use, and it makes a very pretty (and consistent) picture.

Sorta like a FS100 without the bells and whistles.

For the money, I can hardly imagine a better camera. YMMV, but the picture, straight out of the camera, is very pleasing.

That said, it does like to jack up the gain in weird, unneeded ways. One of the weaknesses - albeit an understandable one considering price point - is lack of dedicated buttons. You essentially only have one programmable button, the spinny-push wheel. I pretty much always have gain assigned to that button to make sure it's a low as possible.

What lenses are you using? Hopefully nice and fast. If you're using the stock lens, there may be some weird mojo going on. I use primarily prime lenses that control the f stock manually. If you haven't already, strap a Rokinon on your VG, make sure the gain is low, make sure your battery is fully charged, and see what happens.

If you're still experiencing heavy grain, you make have something wrong with the camera - mine has done very well in low light (although I do shoot with very fast primes).

If there's anything I can help with, email at: evilgeniusemail@gmail or PM here.
 
My! John, thanks for such a kind and patient response. I turned the gain setting to manual. I'll test shooting at night to find settings that will give me as low grain as possible, for fixing in post is horribly troublesome. Neat Video and another one are the only two ways out I know to fix grain in after, unlike motion blur which has more fix options. I'm emailing you now.
 
jdv said:
I just finished a feature (GHOST PUNCHER) using primary a VG20. They're not for everyone, but if you can figure out a way to record sound (either with a 1/8" phantom mic) or separately, it's a wonderful run and gun camera. Batteries last forever, it's relatively easy to use, and it makes a very pretty (and consistent) picture.

Sorta like a FS100 without the bells and whistles.

For the money, I can hardly imagine a better camera. YMMV, but the picture, straight out of the camera, is very pleasing.

That said, it does like to jack up the gain in weird, unneeded ways. One of the weaknesses - albeit an understandable one considering price point - is lack of dedicated buttons. You essentially only have one programmable button, the spinny-push wheel. I pretty much always have gain assigned to that button to make sure it's a low as possible.

What lenses are you using? Hopefully nice and fast. If you're using the stock lens, there may be some weird mojo going on. I use primarily prime lenses that control the f stock manually. If you haven't already, strap a Rokinon on your VG, make sure the gain is low, make sure your battery is fully charged, and see what happens.

If you're still experiencing heavy grain, you make have something wrong with the camera - mine has done very well in low light (although I do shoot with very fast primes).

If there's anything I can help with, email at: evilgeniusemail@gmail or PM here.
Click to expand...

Yup I always assign gain to the 'spinning wheel' and have it at 0. Because both 'shutter' and 'iris' have dedicated
buttons which will allow you to quickly switch the 'spinning wheel' over to control them while your gain stays locked
at 0.
 
alaskacameradude...Thank you. I liked that page already. But I was really talking about an active group with discussions and experience sharing. So strange that this nice cam hasn't those groups all over.
 
Crye said:
My! John, thanks for such a kind and patient response... I'm emailing you now.
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No worries, glad to be any kind of help (got the email BTW; sent a reply).

To be clear, I don't monkey with altering the color wheel/color temp (other than to set it to indoor or outdoor lighting/color temp), or attempt to shoot flat. Other than making the gain low as can be, it's pretty much set up as stock as possible, shooting at 24 p.

I've experimented with a bit of slo-mo, but not for the movie.

One other thing you may want to look at - the VG 20 essentially has 3 quality modes for shooting - SD, low HD, and "normal" HD. As a practical matter, not much difference between the two HD modes (although if you have a slow memory card, full HD might be a bit to heavy), but whenever possible I shoot in the best quality possible.

There is of course more grain when you shoot SD (in other words, make sure you haven't accidentally shot in SD or the lower quality HD modes).

Can't think of anything else off the top of my head that might be causing grain issues... but I'll keep thinking on it.
 
Ok cool and most kind of you, guys. I'm more comfortable with figures and clear steps like this. So I should be sending gain down toward 0, and yeah, I always record highest quality. I'm trying to make a list of presets for various kinds of projects/shoots, then try to understand why later. I will try some tests this new light.

But I'm wondering ... so gain should be increased with increase in light? i.e, from this reasoning that gain should go down (Or when is it to go up? Thinking since it was designed with "up" values then there must be situations to increase it; maybe in sufficient light when we don't need worry about grain? Cos I know low light is a major cause of he noise. So I saw this clear image shot in the night, though with distant lights. It's "low light"...but how come there's no grain beats me. Is this also to do with gain, that is, using Gain to counteract the effect of low light?.
 
Crye said:
Ok cool and most kind of you, guys. I'm more comfortable with figures and clear steps like this. So I should be sending gain down toward 0, and yeah, I always record highest quality. I'm trying to make a list of presets for various kinds of projects/shoots, then try to understand why later. I will try some tests this new light.

But I'm wondering ... so gain should be increased with increase in light? i.e, from this reasoning that gain should go down (Or when is it to go up? Thinking since it was designed with "up" values then there must be situations to increase it; maybe in sufficient light when we don't need worry about grain? Cos I know low light is a major cause of he noise. So I saw this clear image shot in the night, though with distant lights. It's "low light"...but how come there's no grain beats me. Is this also to do with gain, that is, using Gain to counteract the effect of low light?.
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So, you ALWAYS start with the gain at '0'. Then if you it is too dark, and the iris is already open, and you have
no ND filters in front of the lens, and the shutter speed is set correctly (1/48), then and only then, do you begin to
add in gain. Add as little as you can get away with.....the more you add, the noisier the image gets. You can get
away with 12-15db of gain without it looking too bad, if needed, but less is always more. As for a 'non noisy' image
that you saw, even though it was shot at night, a lot of that has to do with the lens. For example, if you have a lens
that will open up to F1.4, you won't need to add gain like you would if your lens will only open up to F5.6, because the
lens is letting so much more light in. So having a good, fast, lens means you can shoot in much lower light. Of course it also
means you must have good, strong ND filters if you want to shoot with it open during the day.
 
OMG, thank you so much. Makes it so easy to understand. And yes, that' something I was forgetting...the lens!! So if this stock lens for the NEX VG20 (18-200mm) can see this good then I wonder what better would do. I have a scene in clear bright light and the images are amazing and so colorful you have ample latitude to do whatever with the image.
 
Crye said:
OMG, thank you so much. Makes it so easy to understand. And yes, that' something I was forgetting...the lens!! So if this stock lens for the NEX VG20 (18-200mm) can see this good then I wonder what better would do. I have a scene in clear bright light and the images are amazing and so colorful you have ample latitude to do whatever with the image.
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Alaska does a good job breaking it down alright.

The stock lens is a good soccer mom, do everything, lens. That's not a diss - perhaps the most important movies ever made are home movies, at least to those who shoot them. The stock lens has a wide focal length/range, isn't horribly slow considering that, and works well under a wide variety of weather situations. In other words, it's a good jack-of-all-trades lens for the money (last I checked, 'round $800).

But you're going to want at least one fast prime, and 3 is better. I use the aforementioned Rokinon (between myself and my DP, we have their entire set) plus some Canon FD primes. I'll use the stock zoom for something like a public event, like a play or football game or parade, but for narrative work I can't imagine using the stock lens.

You can buy a very good Canon FD prime for super cheap. Throw on a $15 Amazon "dumb" adapter (FD to NEX) and you're rocking for less than a $100. The Rokinon 35 is fantastic.

The great thing about manual F stop glass is that it's one less thing you need to go into the menu to deal with (and of course, they'll be faster and sharper than the stock lens).
 
Hey John. Seeing the range, and considering those wide angle lenses are usually in the low values, say 35mm, 50, unlike 18-200mm, I suspected and you're now confirming this is a jack of all trade. I'll def need some better lenses as soon as I'm ready to shoot my film. I just checked. Rokinon 35 is around $380 on Amazon. Also watched this tutorial https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBWFoszh-LE.

And it's cheaper than the 18-200!...anyway, I'm sure it's cos it's specialized. I'm making my collection. I couldn't be more grateful!

- When you talk of "manual F stop glass", what is that, is that in relation to a Canon FD prime lens? Like a mechanical aperture dial or a lens adapter? It's like "F stop" is a generic term? Hence I asked...

BTW, do you have a recommended Canon FD prime? I see a long list http://www.canonclassics.com/lenses.php?brand=Canon&mount=FD&type=Prime


 
Crye said:
- When you talk of "manual F stop glass", what is that, is that in relation to a Canon FD prime lens? Like a mechanical aperture dial or a lens adapter? It's like "F stop" is a generic term? Hence I asked...

BTW, do you have a recommended Canon FD prime? I see a long list http://www.canonclassics.com/lenses.php?brand=Canon&mount=FD&type=Prime
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Most of the older shooters here (I'm guessing) would agree with me that investing in glass (lenses) in rarely a bad idea. The very fact that Canon FD lenses still have any value; that they are still used up to right this second is some proof of that.

Good glass will keep it's value far more than any video camera. For instance, the Sony F3 - which first went on sale only 3 years ago - cost $14,000 when it first came out. You can pick it up right now, brand new, for $4,000 over at B&H. Yet the same Rokinon 35 I bought 4 years ago for $300 cost $379 at Amazon right now. Used, they're going for around $250.

In other words, good lenses tend to hold their value for a much longer time than the cameras they're originally meant for - esp if it's a popular mount. A bit off topic perhaps, but keep it in mind.

Far as buying used glass - of any kind - it's usually a safe bet as long as it's a reliable seller. Besides scratches, look out for fog or mold. A lot of times on FD glass (well, at least the what's in the local camera shops), you'll find that the iris is stuck open or perhaps a rattle. But hey, if the price is right go for it. One of my best mid-range manual zooms is an ancient Canon FD.

Far as which kind to buy, it's really more of what's in stock and what your budget is. It's certainly a good way to dip your foot into primes for cheap. One caveat about using FD zoom lenses, they are usually of the push/pull variety. That means to zoom in (or out) you literally pull or push on the lens barrel (as opposed to spinning the lens). Little clunky compared to modern glass, but you get used to it (watch out though - you won't be able to use follow focus gizmos with them - well, at least not easily).

The FD primes, of course, operate in the normal, manual, way - very close to the Rokinons actually.

Here's an example of what you can do with an old Canon FD zoom lens with a push/pull barrel (from footage I shot last year):
https://youtu.be/vFrV6Fpk4MI

Now notice how smooth the zoom backwards from the telephone pole is. That's because I simply let gravity pull the lens back - making it ultra smooth. I think I paid $40 for that lens, and it's one of the more memorable shots in the movie.

Hope that helps!

KEH incredibly reliable place to buy old glass - even their "bargain" or even "ugly" rated stuff is usually very usable:
https://www.keh.com/search/list?n=147&mfg[]=Canon&mnt[]=12

Fairly reliable review site for FD glass:
http://www.fdreview.com/lenses.php?brand=Canon&mount=FDn&type=Prime
 
Thanks, John. I truly appreciate your patience. Well, I guess it's a matter of budget and the mechanism wouldn't be much of a prob since I'll only be adding a new experience, a pull or push glass, to a zoom in/out that I have. If eventually I can't get a brand new I'll go to keh.com (tks) or similar, but if my pockets don't go deeper sooner than my patience can hold then I'll start with the Rokinon 35 or similar instead of gray on waiting to get a Sony F3 or the sort. I know this is a long walk filled with upgrades, and like film gear herself, the ambition never stops for those who really love this. You learn as you gather and practice. With enough passion for the art, and the right resources of course, you can get what you want in good time. That's what I believe.

BTW, thanks for the links, I bookmarked!! Did you complete your movie already? The zoom-out was nice, but I wonder why you wouldn't use scale-type zooming (in editing, in PPro under Motion/Position effect) for such a range to the static phone pole? And the pole area lighting was also a bit insufficient IMHO. But a great thing is the transition from the tree branches to the beautiful night street...sooo smooth and clean (Blending? I don't think a normal crossfade can make it that smooth!). Do you have a place such as a site where you keep your other things for public to see?
 
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No, not finished quite yet. Hope to have the world premiere this Halloween...

Far as using a editing program zoom, the VG20 does hold up surprisingly well, at least on smaller screens But I had a cool zoom shot, so I went for it.

BTW, that clip on youtube totally raw, no color or brightness changes.

Most of my films are on Amazon. My last feature, VAMPIRELAND is on Amazon Prime right now.
 
I see. Of course a synthetic zoom is just what it is, can't be like one actually done with cam, and which would have more room for further artificial zooming before 'pixelation' begins. That question has always been in my mind..like why worry about smooth cam zooms when the program can do it. The VG20 is really a blessing for the money. I can't believe the shots for the money. I need dig deeper to know the operation better. But theory is at the core. I have a big prob there. All that Physics etc was a total waste(lol)...well, so far.

OMG, good luck with your movie on Amazon. Lemme go check...(thanks a million again!)

EDIT: I just saw it. Catchy logline and crew intro! Best of luck! (Pls let me know how I can help, say to promote it)
 
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