What NLE to Use....

BitBuilder is right though: what they included in AL7 looks consumer-like at first.
But Bitbuilder: there is also the intergration of LiquidEdition BROADCAST for free (the 4:2:2, the DVCPro50 and the P2 support) and also bear in mind that this upgrade was still developped by Pinnacle before Avid bought them. There is not much grown on Avids ideas here yet. AL8 will be AVID. but that is far away in IT-timezones. I think the lack of 24p and DVCPro costs them A LOT OF users already now and if they don´t get a patch up soon for DVCProHD then their huge European market (FAST is german) will crumble very fast. me included :(
 
I really, really hope you guys are right because I love my workflow as it stands, and the features in Liquid Edition Pro are really powerful, and it's fast. I always think it's funny, because I have a few friends who have looked at the interface and passed judgment almost immediately that it was a consumer product. But once they saw the thing burning through the edits they shut up quick, it was one of those things you had to watch to enjoy.

I am midway through working on a product and I don't do system changes during edits, but once I'm done with that I'll try upgrading the codec, and see if Liquid recognizes it. Again I'm using Liquid Edition Pro 6.1 right now so if someone has 7, that would probably be a better test. I hope I'm wrong and being pessimistic on this, it's just I've got a bad feeling (pure gut). If they can prove me wrong in the AL8 release I'll be happy, but I also hope there is a way to get DVCPRO HD working sooner than 8 months out.

After all, the only feature I want is to be able to edit DVCPRO HD right off the P2 card, or firestore. :thumbsup: I don't really "need" anything else right now.

-BitBuilder
 
alpi69 said:
BitBuilder is right though: what they included in AL7 looks consumer-like at first....
Click to expand...
I think the addition of Smart Sound and things like that are to catch up to Xpress Pro and Premiere Pro. Those apps already had that type of stuff.

Just wondering if you guys use the "classic" interface or the new 'bubblegum' interface? If you're using the 'bubblegum' interface, try booting into the 'classic' FAST interface. There is nothing consumer about it. I think they made the bubblegum interface for studio and premiere users (drop down menu's).

anyway it's all good. They're claiming 24p end to end is on the way. About the DVCProHD codec, Hmnnn. There is one single camera under 10K that supports that format and I think Avid (Liquid) will be like Vegas and Premiere in supporting the HVX200. We'll see...
 
that would be the end of my Liquid-days :(

BTW, i think I use what you call bubblegum, because I have the menus (File, Edit, View etc). But it looks as pro as any other NLE IMO.
 
why? if Liquid does not support DVCProHD it will be useless. I do not see myself re-encoding all HVX footage to uncompressed. Since Edius
/Canopus seems even worse than Apple when it comes to charge for different add-ons it looks like FCP will be the only viable option for HVX users. I had a quick look at AvidXPress again and it really is not made for me......

I really hoüe AVID changes their mind about DVCProHD support in Liquid. I am of course willing to pay for that format as long as it is reasonable priced.
 
to "post 21": Chrome is € 7.000 and currently does not even support DVCProHD AFAIK. LiquidPro was 1.000. For one codec 7-times the software? Chrome is aimed at the HDCam market as a hardware solution while LiquidPro is softwarebased. For me Chrome is no option. For that money I can maybe buy two FCP boxes (after selling my current PC-system).

I simply have too much footage and too little time to re-encode to uncompressed. Considering that archivation will be a problem already with DVCProHD how do you want to archivate uncompressed? zipping it first?
 
[1]

alpi69 said:
to "post 21": Chrome is € 7.000 and currently does not even support DVCProHD AFAIK. LiquidPro was 1.000. For one codec 7-times the software? Chrome is aimed at the HDCam market as a hardware solution while LiquidPro is softwarebased. For me Chrome is no option. For that money I can maybe buy two FCP boxes (after selling my current PC-system).
Click to expand...
You're right!


Concerning AVID:
http://www.hdforindies.com/2004/11/conversation-on-proscons-of-avids

«-XPress Pro can only edit, not capture nor lay back to tape (they are STILL protecting their high end!). Oh, and if I understood correctly, XPress Pro REQUIRES the Mojo hardware to process (play back and edit) DNxHD»


alpi69 said:
after selling my current PC-system.
Click to expand...
I'm with you but that radical idea is maybe a little bit radical...'cause PC is more universal and affordable.


[2]

alpi69 said:
I simply have too much footage and too little time to re-encode to uncompressed. Considering that archivation will be a problem already with DVCProHD how do you want to archivate uncompressed? zipping it first?
Click to expand...
I'm thinking to follow this way...(for and not only) film-out...but I'm not sure if it will be feasible. What do you think? So unfeasible?...considering a feature (runtime 120 minutes*), for instance?


* And don't forget the takes archiving, too!


[conclusion: I'm also worried!]
 
Next Gen. Chrome HD (following Liquid 7) is not out yet. I'd suspect it to be out in January (maybe) and it may likely have DVCProHD support via P2. It certainly has HD-SDI. The fact is that Xpress or FCP does not support DVCProHD end to end or directly.

For SD (DVCPro50 422) P2 MXF, you've got it made with Liquid 7. For DVCProHD, your choices are very limited (and expensive). We all keep coming back to the WORKFLOW issues with the HVX200. There will be some pioneers (and alot of workarounds) next year.
 
stephenlnoe said:
There is one single camera under 10K that supports that format
Click to expand...
Yeah, but in six months it could have as many (or more?) users than all the HDV products combined... :laugh: :happy: :cheesy:

and I think Avid (Liquid) will be like Vegas and Premiere in supporting the HVX200. We'll see...
Click to expand...
Well, see, that's the part I don't get. Avid's already got the codec! They already give it away for free. And now that Avid is the parent company of Liquid, why NOT integrate the Avid DV100 codec into Liquid? If they've already got 24p support, and they've already got Op-Atom MXF support, then the only thing they have left to do is support the already-developed, already-existing DV100 codec... I'm just saying that if they'd just take that last step, and Vegas & Premiere don't, there may be a lot of Vegas & Premiere users who go NLE-shopping, and Liquid could maybe scoop up a bunch of 'em.
 
Barry,

I checked further into the DV100 codec. It is installed with Liquid 6 and 7 and it can be used with QT for export or import. Also the DNxHD and Blackmagic are installed for use with QT on import and export. So I guess it's been there for the past year and I've never paid attention to it mainly because I work primarily in SD (IframeMP@ML, DVCPro50 or DV25) and for HDV, I work in HDV without a transcode.

HVX have more users than HDV? You've dreamed up some funny shiznit :laugh: I doubt the total HVX sales wil surpass the HC1/A1 (alone). I hope they do, but I doubt it.

Seriously, are you going to get back on the HD-100 horse? The pioneering days are almost over and the territory is pretty much mapped out (with the exception of the 13x lens and the FS). Or are you going to be a pioneer for the HVX200's workflow?
 
stephenlnoe said:
Barry,

I checked further into the DV100 codec. It is installed with Liquid 6 and 7 and it can be used with QT for export or import. Also the DNxHD and Blackmagic are installed for use with QT on import and export.

HVX have more users than HDV? You've dreamed up some funny shiznit :laugh: I doubt the total HVX sales wil surpass the HC1/A1. I hope they do, but I doubt it.
Click to expand...

So Liquid can read P2-HVX files? is that what you mean? do i need to make it a QT? huh? please explain for me. i am a bit slow on mondays.....(the FortyNiners kept me up until 2am local time)

yes, HVX will never get near HDV, since HDV is consumer. but the HVX will own the Canon cam IMO and it will beat the big Sony....
 
Hi stephenlnoe,

Does this mean if I do an import to QT format I can use the resulting .mov file in Liquid 6/7? I too am a little confused about the usebility of this, and the workflow path. I was hoping for a native format, and the ability to avoid a transcode step. Although, if this is all I have for the moment it sure as heck is better than having to goto uncompressed. Barry, was this the method you were suggesting to use?

Thanks in advance...
-BitBuilder
 
I've already seen the beta of Liquid 7, and it's barely an upgrade over Liquid 6.1, so nothing much new there other than the addition of SmartSounds and some effects filters from Commotion. But, supposedly, Liquid 8 is going to have full 24p support, not the half-hearted, mostly-chewed bone thrown at 24p users in Liquid 6, which was little more than an insult.

It would be an opportunity that Avid would be foolish to pass up, even though they intend to market Liquid and Xpress to entirely different user sets -- Xpress for the indy film crowd; Liquid for the event/wedding videographer crowd.

But if I had to leave Vegas in order to work with the HVX, I'd hope I could go to Liquid, because I'd much rather use it than Xpress, Premiere, or Edius.
 
David Jimerson said:
and it's barely an upgrade over Liquid 6.1, so nothing much new there other than the addition of SmartSounds and some effects filters from Commotion
Click to expand...
You may have meant to say "it's barely an upgrade over Liquid 6.1 Broadcast". Liquid 7 is a big jump over Liquid 6.1 Pro merely because it works in 422 (DVCPro50 and I-frame MPEG2 50Mb). Liquid 7 gives you P2 and XDCam ingest that were only found at the Liquid Broadcast level before. It is a giant leap for Liquid 7 toward the HVX (P2 MXF support) since it includes DVCPro50 P2 MXF ingest. What's lacking (as you say) is 24p end to end and the pulldown tools for multi-framerates.

Anyway, for a $199 upgrade from any version of Liquid or Premiere to get 422 and DVCPro50 P2 ingest is a small price to pay. Although I realize it does not fully support every aspect of the HVX200. Shoot man, you would think P2 MXF DVCPro50 editing would be a godsend for most guys that are editing for broadcast on a budget.


We'll have to see on DVCProHD P2 MXF ingest with Liquid 8...
 
agreed. many underestimate the 4:2:2 upgrade which is HUGE to me also. but in a few months it will be "old" yet again and we will want more on the HD side.

So Stephen if I read your other post correct we can convert the P2 files to DV100 via tools like DVFilm-Maker and import that into LE7?
and does anyone know if the free DV tool from Avid can read DV100? it should with the codec, no? i am still looking for a laptop-roughcut solution...
 
stephenlnoe said:
You may have meant to say "it's barely an upgrade over Liquid 6.1 Broadcast". Liquid 7 is a big jump over Liquid 6.1 Pro merely because it works in 422 (DVCPro50 and I-frame MPEG2 50Mb). Liquid 7 gives you P2 and XDCam ingest that were only found at the Liquid Broadcast level before. It is a giant leap for Liquid 7 toward the HVX (P2 MXF support) since it includes DVCPro50 P2 MXF ingest. What's lacking (as you say) is 24p end to end and the pulldown tools for multi-framerates.
Click to expand...

Ah, touche'! i did neglect to mention those. I was stuck in "it's not really an integer-level (7 vs. 6.5, say) upgrade" mode, more like an incremental update.
 
alpi69 said:
...Stephen if I read your other post correct we can convert the P2 files to DV100 via tools like DVFilm-Maker and import that into LE7?...
Click to expand...

I do not know and will not know until there is a P2 DVCProHD MXF to work with. Your guess is as good as mine right now.

What I was referring to was, Avid has included the HD codecs with the Liquid install. These can be used with Quicktime. We'll have to get our mitt's on an MXF file and work with it to see what we're are capable of.

Of course, anyone of us would want to work natively with DVCProHD in order to:
A) save time because there would be no intermediate codec transcode.
B) have the least amount of generation loss so we deliver (at most) second generation video (ie FX and Title generation and/or delivery format generation).

We'll just have to wait and see....
 
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