F3: What is the best option for 34-36 fps?

Douglas Villalba

Douglas Villalba

Well-known member
I will be shooting a story with the F3 with most of it shot at 720/24p at 34 or 36 fps (slight slomo no sound). Since the F3 is not capable of doing it at 1080 I have to not only shoot 720, but it will have to be recorded to the internal recorder 8 bit 420.
My question is for anyone that has actually done it. I love to shoot everything S Log 1080 422 to my KiPro Mini but it can't record slomo even @720. (KiPro Mini can only do 10 bit 720/60)
Question is Should I shoot and record everything internally @ 720 or do any kind of mix 1080 internal or to KiPro? S Log or not at all? Should I keep everything @720 or up convert to 1080 for delivery?
Has anyone come across this situation? :embarasse
 
Try connecting your ki pro to the monitor port, set it to record 720p60 and then set the S&Q motion to 36fps. I don't know whether this will work or not, but it may be possible to record the 34 fps in a 60p wrapper.

worth a try a least.
 
Grug's idea of using monitor port is a good idea. It may work.

If not however I shot slo mo with and without SLOG to SXS 720p and final delivery was 1080p done by performing 50% blow up in post. I will send you vimeo links for your review and to inspect.

SLOG in 8-bit is not recommended because you are working with less data bits, but I've done it on a few projects and if grading will be subtle then it is not as problematic as it may seem. Maybe for your project you can do some tests of your own and decide if you want to shoot SLOG or not to SXS.

As for the blow up I mentioned from 720p to 1080p it can be difficult to detect, I use it all the time mixing 1080p24p footage with 720p60 or 720p48p. Again try some tests and see for yourself what you think and if the difference is acceptable to you or not for the project.
 
Yes, you can record the 720p60 stream, but there will be an unknown cadence of unique and repeated frames, and there will be no software to extract the unique frames out of the repeats. It will be useless for actually using as slow motion.

You can do slog to 8bit, and I get good results with it all the time. It's not as nice as 10bit, but there's a zillion Canon C300 users doing the same and it works for them just fine.
 
+1 Dennis and Nate

If you can get hold of a Nanoflash, it is able to do under/overcranking not via the SDI feed but within the device.

Ned
 
nsoltz said:
+1 Dennis and Nate

If you can get hold of a Nanoflash, it is able to do under/overcranking not via the SDI feed but within the device.

Ned
Click to expand...
How mush better is 8 bit 422 compared to 8 bit 420 XDCam?
720/60 looks just fine at 10 bit 422 ProRes HQ. I can see the degrading of 8 bit 420 in the transition between the highs and lows. Both on my Panasonic 21" and Apple 27" LEDs.
I may go the post slowmo way with Motion. Specially since all I want is just a little off speed to through off the viewer. I used to do this with the HVX200 @ 720/24PN 34 fps 8 bit 422, but back then instead of up converting, we were down converting to SD.
All I ask from Sony's update v1.5 is 1080 36 fps. If that update ever materializes. :thumbsup:
 
If its only a couple shots, I'd shoot 60fps and then speed it up via "Optical Flow" the appropriate amount.

If software is "morphing" new frames out of nothing, then more source frames per second is better than less.

Try to do a test first though, it's easy enough.
 
I did a test shooting at 720/60 ProRes HQ >Converted to 720/24 in Cinema Tools> Sped it it up 166% and this is the 175 MB file for anyone that wants to see me acting like an idiot at +/- 36 fps. Full 720/24 10 bit ProRes HQ
I haven't had time to sit and analyze it, so tell me what you think.

http://www.mediafire.com/?chsbpg8ri0j6bk1
 
To confirm, you shot S+Q 36fps but recorded 720p60p then dropped to 24p timeline, then sped footage on timeline by 166%?

That aside, I see some issues with motion artifacting as it appears several frame have been blended together to make new frames.

doug.jpg
 
Douglas Villalba said:
I did a test shooting at 720/60 ProRes HQ >Converted to 720/24 in Cinema Tools> Sped it it up 166% and this is the 175 MB file for anyone that wants to see me acting like an idiot at +/- 36 fps. Full 720/24 10 bit ProRes HQ
I haven't had time to sit and analyze it, so tell me what you think.

http://www.mediafire.com/?chsbpg8ri0j6bk1
Click to expand...

Ok, how did you speed it up in FCP?

You need to use Optical Flow speed change, not just frame blending. Frame blending is going to look pretty bad. (although the frame blending in your test is not as terrible as it could be)

Do the speed change in Motion or FCPX. Or After Effects. Any of those will MORPH new frames out of the source frames rather than doing frame blending, with is kind of archaic by today's standards. The weird ghosts Dennis grabbed above are from frame blending.
 
No, 720/60 straight. I was moving faster than you would normally move just talking to check for motion. I forgot to change the shutter from 180 to maybe 90 degrees.
I'll shoot some more test, but it almost where I want it.
This is the same clip, but sped up with Motion instead of FCP7. Check it out, the motion blur looks a lot better. http://www.mediafire.com/?x50zabiz8tierpa

EDIT: Thanks Nate. I didn't see your post until I had posted the test. Motion did mush better with the same clip.
 
You can skip the Cinema Tools step too. Just take the 720p60 and slow it down the appropriate percentage. Motion will make use of the all the frames just the same as it does when it thinks they're supposed to be played back at 60.
 
Nate Weaver said:
You can skip the Cinema Tools step too. Just take the 720p60 and slow it down the appropriate percentage. Motion will make use of the all the frames just the same as it does when it thinks they're supposed to be played back at 60.
Click to expand...
My final output should be 1080/24p to match the rest of the footage. What are you suggesting should be the whole workflow?
 
Shoot 720p60 for the overcranked shots. External recorder or internal SxS, depending on your tolerance for monkeying with external recorder settings during shoot. I believe if you want to do this via external recorder, you will have to connect recorder via the Monitor SDI and turn LUTs off.

Take all the overcranked shots into Motion. Make the project 1080p23.98 Do speed change, ensure "Optical Flow" is enabled in the speed change. Export all at 1080p23.98 ProRes HQ.

Bring the export into your main edit project.
 
I like to record S Log to KiPro Mini otherwise I wouldn't have to do speed change.
I'll shoot something tomorrow with the shutter @ 90 degrees and try your workflow. What I don't get is how Motion slowdown the footage like Cinema Tools would and then speed it up. Maybe I'm just too tired to understand at this time. :huh:
 
Douglas Villalba said:
What I don't get is how Motion slowdown the footage like Cinema Tools would and then speed it up.
Click to expand...

It doesn't, because it doesn't need to.

At the end of the day, you need your footage to play back at 66% real time. That's because 36fps played @24 is 66%

So you take 60fps (in a file intended to play back at 60), put it in a 24p timeline, tell it to playback at 66% speed, and it takes those 60 separate images taken per second and makes it work.
 
Douglas,

The Sony SR-R1 unit actually can record 1080p 17-60p native. You can select any frame rate in that range, include 34,35, or 36fps, and it will record it properly to the SR-R1. For your application, this would be the highest quality acquisition possible - you'd be recording directly to SRMaster in 10bit.

Additionally, it'll record a 720p copy to the SxS at the same time. And, it can share file names between media. And it will automatically know to play back at 23.98 or 29.97 as you choose.

Of course, not many people have the SR-R1, but if you want, you're welcome to rent mine.
 
Viddovation said:
Douglas,

The Sony SR-R1 unit actually can record 1080p 17-60p native. You can select any frame rate in that range, include 34,35, or 36fps, and it will record it properly to the SR-R1. For your application, this would be the highest quality acquisition possible - you'd be recording directly to SRMaster in 10bit.

Additionally, it'll record a 720p copy to the SxS at the same time. And, it can share file names between media. And it will automatically know to play back at 23.98 or 29.97 as you choose.

Of course, not many people have the SR-R1, but if you want, you're welcome to rent mine.
Click to expand...
If had a budget I would rent a camera that would record natively 1080/24 at 36 fps. I'm doing a music video for my demo so I have to use what I already own.
Thanks anyway.
 
Doug, is there any lip-syncing going on while you are shooting 36fps?

If so you need to create a playback track that is sped up the same amount from your base project frame rate.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top