What is Hollywood using?

David G. Smith

David G. Smith

Steak Knife Member
I was just wondering if anyone here has any idea if DAT has been replaced for major production location audio. Is there a recorder that has become the de facto standard for direct to disk work? If not what recorders are the big hitters?
 
And I would like to know which shotgun mics Hollywood guys prefer? Any models? :thumbsup:
 
On the 35mm feature film sets I've been to, the trend seems to be the use of dedicated multiple HDD and DVD recorders designed specifically for motion picture sound recording. I think they use DAT primarily as a back-up now.
 
Not a hollywood sound man, but the Aaton Cantar-X is really popular for reality shows. Zaxcom Deva's are also popular. My hunch is many film mixers will continue to use the front end devices from Cooper Audio and augment them with MetaCorder software on their laptops. Surprisingly, radio mics are increasingly being used on big movies instead of boomed microphones. That's why mixers need so many channels!

The Schoeps line of mics have traditionally been the defacto number-one choice, but the Sennheiser MKH-50/60 series are given them a run for their money because they they don't have problems with humidity like the Schoeps do.

Hope this helps.
 
thisiswells said:
The Schoeps line of mics have traditionally been the defacto number-one choice, but the Sennheiser MKH-50/60 series are given them a run for their money because they they don't have problems with humidity like the Schoeps do.

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

Yeah! This helps indeed! Thanks. :)
 
For those of you that don't know, the hollywood sound guys are my customers, and friends.

The Deva IV and Deva V are by far outselling every other machine right now by about 10 to 1 (at least as far as the big machines are concerned). The Cantar looks cool, but it's a pain to use. The PD-6 from Fostex already has one foot in the grave. The HHB Portadrive is cool, but the lack of a local rep that's really on top of it is making it hard to move.

As far as the small recorders go, the Sound Devices 744t is doing well, although it's very hard to get right now. Sound Devices is slow to get these out, so get on a list now if you want one.

As far as mics go...I'll just give you a list of mics that most guys have in their mic arsenal. It's usually not just one mic.

Shotguns:
Sennheiser MKH416, MKH60, MKH50
Sanken CS-3e, CS-1
Neumann KMR82i, KMR81i

Lavs:
Sanken COS-11s
Sennheiser MKE-Platinum, MKE2
Tram TR-50
Countryman B6
DPA
The Pin Mic.

Other:
Schoeps CMC6 w/ MK41
Sanken CUB-01


-Dave
 
The biggest problem right now with the move away from DAT is telecine houses. They are slow to invest into readers that will allow them to sync up during telecine. Because of this many "big time" mixers who are using the Deva are still recording to DAT and that is what is getting put on the dailes. It's progressing slowly but the houses are bit by bit breaking down and adding the file readers. The big house in Seattle is "suppose" to be getting a DV4 before the end of the year :thumbsup: (or so I have been told).

DIE TAPE DIE!!! :)
 
wabbit said:
The biggest problem right now with the move away from DAT is telecine houses. They are slow to invest into readers that will allow them to sync up during telecine. Because of this many "big time" mixers who are using the Deva are still recording to DAT and that is what is getting put on the dailes. It's progressing slowly but the houses are bit by bit breaking down and adding the file readers. The big house in Seattle is "suppose" to be getting a DV4 before the end of the year :thumbsup: (or so I have been told).

DIE TAPE DIE!!! :)
Click to expand...

What file format(s) are standard, wave, aiff or what? is 48k, 16bit currently standard or have they moved to 96k, 24bit? In your opinion, does the higher resoulution sample rates have any advantages (to over ride the extra cost) for location production?
 
Dave_Fisk said:
For those of you that don't know, the hollywood sound guys are my customers, and friends.

The Deva IV and Deva V are by far outselling every other machine right now by about 10 to 1 (at least as far as the big machines are concerned). The Cantar looks cool, but it's a pain to use. The PD-6 from Fostex already has one foot in the grave. The HHB Portadrive is cool, but the lack of a local rep that's really on top of it is making it hard to move.

As far as the small recorders go, the Sound Devices 744t is doing well, although it's very hard to get right now. Sound Devices is slow to get these out, so get on a list now if you want one.

As far as mics go...I'll just give you a list of mics that most guys have in their mic arsenal. It's usually not just one mic.

Shotguns:
Sennheiser MKH416, MKH60, MKH50
Sanken CS-3e, CS-1
Neumann KMR82i, KMR81i

Lavs:
Sanken COS-11s
Sennheiser MKE-Platinum, MKE2
Tram TR-50
Countryman B6
DPA
The Pin Mic.

Other:
Schoeps CMC6 w/ MK41
Sanken CUB-01


-Dave
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info, Dave! Very intresting to know what real pros are using...although it's also how you use them... :happy:
 
BWF is shapping up to be the standard.

The problem with the telecine houses adopting NLR is they gain very little by it. There is much debate as to how much time is saved thru using file vs tape since the film has to cue up anyways. So without a clear cut advantage to their workflow, the only way they are gonna plunk down the money for a Fostex or Indaw is if there is enough of a demand that they will lose lose/gain business by having one or not.

The sampling rate advantages is noticable (to me) for dialog at 96k vs 48k, but not drastically so. You really have to A/B it to hear difference. I have been recording using 24/48 for dialog. It's smaller file size and easy of dealing with in post makes it the choice for me right now. The 24 bit advantage is huge. The greater dynamic range is amazing. The head room would make Shakeal O'Neil jealous. It's one of those things that once you have worked with you can never go back. :grin:

Best
 
How about the AKG Blue Line? I've read on these forums that they're used on big budget movies like Pearl Harbor. Are these mikes really good enough to compete with the Sankens and Neumanns? They're much cheaper and modular, both of which make them very interesting to DV filmmakers without unlimited budgets. Dave, are the pros really using this line (shotgun, hyper, etc.)?
 
Dave, when you say PD-6 already has one foot in the grave, what do you mean by that? Are they getting ready to replace it?

Steve
 
FYI, Zaxcom has a Deva emulator for the PC and you can download the manual as well if you want to get a feel for how to use their recorders.
 
wabbit said:
BWF is shapping up to be the standard.

The problem with the telecine houses adopting NLR is they gain very little by it. There is much debate as to how much time is saved thru using file vs tape since the film has to cue up anyways. So without a clear cut advantage to their workflow, the only way they are gonna plunk down the money for a Fostex or Indaw is if there is enough of a demand that they will lose lose/gain business by having one or not.

The sampling rate advantages is noticable (to me) for dialog at 96k vs 48k, but not drastically so. You really have to A/B it to hear difference. I have been recording using 24/48 for dialog. It's smaller file size and easy of dealing with in post makes it the choice for me right now. The 24 bit advantage is huge. The greater dynamic range is amazing. The head room would make Shakeal O'Neil jealous. It's one of those things that once you have worked with you can never go back. :grin:

Best
Click to expand...

BWF is the "default" project format option in Pro Tools since version 6 I believe.

Personally I think the 24 bit advantage is far larger for mixing than it is for recording. I don't think anyone should sweat recording on DAT at 16/48k, but they should definately convert and MIX at 24 bit, no question.

I also skip 96K and 192K for recording because I don't really see a lot of benefit, the files are huge, and I would have to buy more HD Process cards :)
 
Thanks for all the info. Hate to sound like a newbie, but I don't know sh*t about audio post for film anymore (I did cut multi-track 16mm magstock on a flatbed a couple of times... back in the stone age). How does the production audio go from location recorder to post systems? Has simple file transfer replaced the resolving process? Is all the syncing done at the intial telecine stage?
 
wabbit said:
The problem with the telecine houses adopting NLR is they gain very little by it. There is much debate as to how much time is saved thru using file vs tape since the film has to cue up anyways. So without a clear cut advantage to their workflow, the only way they are gonna plunk down the money for a Fostex or Indaw is if there is enough of a demand that they will lose lose/gain business by having one or not.
Click to expand...


This is actually not true. I was just dealing with the show "Bones", and they are recording the sound on a Deva II. The Deva II was having an issue, so they went to the dat. The producers and the post people were getting kind of grumpy because of the extra time and cost involved with having to use the DAT. There is a Feature shooting right now called "Babel" that had a similar issue. They were backing up on a Nagra, and they got all bent out of shape when they had to go to a linear medium.

Broadcast Wav files are the standard right now. You can do either BWF.P and BWF.M files, depending on what machine you get. The Deva can do both. Also, it can format the DVD either FAT32 or UDF. Most of the other machines out there only do one or the other.

As far as the PD-6 already having one foot in the grave (this may get lengthy and kinda techy, so if that bores you, don't bother reading this).....

For starters, it writes to a mini dvd-ram. Each side of the dvd-ram is 1.4 gigs. On a typical production shoot, that lasts about 15 to 20 minutes. So, that means every 15 to 20 minutes of sound, you have to re-load the media. HUGE bummer. Lots of guys are complaining about it. So, Fostex, in their infinite wisdom says "we'll put a hard drive in there for ya. And it won't add any extra weight, or take up more space". I have a couple of issues with this. First, this tells me that Fostex knew that they were going to put the hard drive in it to begin with. They had to have space in the machine, and a place to plug it in, because it was a very easy upgrade to make to the machine. So....this ALSO tells me they didn't have confidence in their machine to begin with. Fostex decided to format the drive in 1.4 gig partitions so it can mirror easily to the mini dvd-ram. So, this means you have to change partitions every 15 to 20 minutes. To help solve this problem, Fostex came out with a docking station that goes under the PD-6 that will accomodate full size 4.7gb dvd-rams. There are two problems with it. One, it's another thing on the cart that requires power..and Two..it's as big, if not bigger than the PD-6, making it a VERY huge and cumbersome setup.

Secondly, the screen on it is way to small to be of any use.

Third: the drive is to succeptable to mechanical issues. There are too many moving parts.

Fourth: because they mainly use hard switches for most of the settings, theyare locked into a lot of things. There are very few things they can accomplish with software upgrades.

Fifth: It's only 6 tracks. I know a ton of guys doing at least 8 track stuff in the field.

Sixth: It's only 96Khz. You cannot record on all tracks at 96Khz.

Seventh: Those mini dvd-rams sell for around $15. A full size DVD-RAM is around $7. AND, I think the PD-6 is the only machine that uses them anymore. What if Maxell discontinues that media?

Eigth: It's a ***** to use over the shoulder, especially if you have to re-load the media, or make hardware changes that are on the top of the machine.

Ninth: So-so mic pres

Tenth: Odd menu system. Last time I checked, you have to be in the home screen to go into record. So, this means that if you are deep in the menu system to change something, and they say roll sound, you have to get back to the main menu to go into record. That's a bummer. You should be able to go into record no matter where you are in the machine. Maybe they've changed this, I'm not sure.

I can go on and on about really, small nitpicky things, but I honestly don't have the time. If you are serious about getting one of these machines, the thing to do is go into your local pro audio dealer and check the units out for yourself. That way you can see for yourself what you like and don't like. If you don't have one close enough that you can go to, then call one up and rent the machines and use them like you would use them on a real job.

-Dave
 
Dave_Fisk said:
This is actually not true. I was just dealing with the show "Bones", and they are recording the sound on a Deva II. The Deva II was having an issue, so they went to the dat. The producers and the post people were getting kind of grumpy because of the extra time and cost involved with having to use the DAT. There is a Feature shooting right now called "Babel" that had a similar issue. They were backing up on a Nagra, and they got all bent out of shape when they had to go to a linear medium.
Click to expand...

Well you LA people are always ahead of the curve. :grin:

The time saving advantages of NLR in post are obvious but I have personally dealt with our local telecine house who is dragging their feet on adopting any file based audio syncing. Even though most of the audio guys in town now have NL recorders, our telecine chooses not to invest in updating their equipment until they are sure of a "stable format'.

The biggest concern not being file format but what medium can be used. This is a fair concern since there is much ambiguity about what is the easiest/best media to deliver the files on. And since, until 2005, they have had very little demand for NL synching, I guess "dragging their feet" is not fair when they have to see a business advantage to investing into the technology.

I know there are similar situations going on in other "2nd tier" cities like Seattle.

Best
 
wabbit said:
Well you LA people are always ahead of the curve. :grin:



The biggest concern not being file format but what medium can be used. This is a fair concern since there is much ambiguity about what is the easiest/best media to deliver the files on.

Best
Click to expand...


This is actually a genuine concern. Right now DVD-RAM is the media of choice. It's the most reliable optical media to date, but it's friggin slow, and with track counts getting higher, we're seeing a 4.7gb dvd-ram not being enough space. With talk of blue ray dvd's, dual layer dvd's, and now holographic dvd's, the standard for optical media is up in the air. Personally, I feel that we are going to move to flash media as the removable media of choice. It's smaller, faster, and the most reliable media to date.

-Dave
 
Dave,

Actually I have used the PD-6 on a couple of films now. I do agree with a lot of your points, and compared to some of the other high end recorders out there, it isn't the most glamorous of the bunch. But I was able to use it effectively for what I was doing. I preformatted the DVD-RAMs, so changing them wasn't a big deal. The $15 a disk was a big deal, but what I do is transfer them to my computer and make backups onto regular DVD. Then I reformat and use the discs again. Again, not ideal but it works. I rented the unit, and it came with the newest firmware and the internal hd, which I agree with you is not ideal because of the partition size. It would have been better to have the HD be full capacity, with the ability to bypass using DVD-RAM altogether. So, this machine can get the job done, just depends on what you need to do, how much time you have, etc.

Steve
 
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