What in my mind might help make P2 a success

Walter_Graff

Walter_Graff

Carbonite Member
I was at an event last year with Susuki from Sony. We got into a conversation about XDCAM. I asked him what else they were working on. He mentioned that they were thinking about options with P2. Now I am told that Sony is releasing cameras with P2 options mext year. I don't know if that means prosumer/consumer cameras because as I understand it they are going to push bluray on consumers but if that is the case, then P2 has a much better chance at success than with Panasonic doing it all alone.

I also spoke to my friend who makes all the decisions at CNN. He said currently they are testing P2, XDCAM and Thomson's new Iomega option for their future acquisition. About the only problem he tells me that P2 suffers from is very occasionally a disk that is supposed to have something on it doesn't. That comes from his last job where he set up a P2 house.
 
Walter_Graff said:
About the only problem he tells me that P2 suffers from is very occasionally a disk that is supposed to have something on it doesn't. That comes from his last job where he set up a P2 house.
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I can't understand how a piece of non volatile SS memory could come up blank? Surely, this was a case where the clip was deleted "in camera" by mistake, I hope!
 
The news on Sony is interesting, the rest of that seems like F.U.D. but you know your stuff, Walter.
I'm curious to hear a reliability comparison of the Iomega harddisks compared to flash cards...
 
thisiswells said:
The news on Sony is interesting, the rest of that seems like F.U.D. but you know your stuff, Walter.
I'm curious to hear a reliability comparison of the Iomega harddisks compared to flash cards...
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your kidding right? Since when was anything Iomega reliable? :huh:
 
If Sony picked up P2 it would make a BIG difference. But Sony....I thought they would be inventing their own, more expensive version... :) The new management must be making changes!

It would help drive down prices quicker too and make it more viable for more people. I would be very pleased if they do this!
 
Rarely as I was told. And this is the second time I heard this. I also heard it from someone at WWOR TV in NY. It's not blank. There is an indication that something is on the card, but it doesn't show any pictures. I never experienced it myself. These are two stories from others.
 
Walter_Graff said:
It's not blank. There is an indication that something is on the card, but it doesn't show any pictures. I never experienced it myself. These are two stories from others.
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Errr... I thought digital breakup was bad. I hope this is VERY rare!
 
Chip manufacturing was explained to me like this. You have a basic chip design, called the PowerPC G4. When they begin manufacturing, they set a target for the average speed of a chip. Some come out faster and some come out slower. There doesn't appear to be much rhyme or reason to it. So, let's pretend the target is 1Ghz. Some are less, these are sold at 867Mhz. Some are more, these are sold as 1.25Ghz. As times moves on and manufacturing processes become more robust, they can more reliably build chips that meet the faster spec. Then, the 867Mhz systems begin disappearing from the marketplace and are "replaced" with the 1Ghz. That's because the 1Ghz are now at the lower end of the scale of what's currently being produced. And, so on.

I guess flash card manufacturing could be the same... Some cards are sold as "40x" not because of design, but because they didn't meet the requirements to be sold as "80x" for various reasons.

The idea behind P2 was to generate a market the upper tier of the really, really good SD cards that are made. They are skimming from the top and selling the cards at a premium. All is well and good, if the user gets what they pay for. Scattered reports of poor recognition here or there is surprising. It alarms me, but not as much as the failure rates I hear about other storage systems.

At a photojournalism convention I attended earlier in the year, we were warned against using off-brand CF cards because of error rates and their inability to write to the cards fast enough. This hit home when one attender shared his experience of losing several photo's on a card because he was anaware of the long refresh time required between shots. The solution was simple... Just buy name brand cards with low error rates and suitable throughput.

With P2, there aren't any other vendors, though it appears there can still be errors with the cards. While I don't see this being much of an issue today with only a few thousand P2 cards on the planet, maybe give a little, it does concern me for the future considering the concept of the P2 card: To use only the best 10% of SD cards. (While there have been no official statements on what percentage of SD cards meet P2 spec, it is widely known to be a very small percentage, as propagated by Panasonic. Ten percent seemed reasonable for this discussion.)

It seems that the number of SD cards being produced would need to grow in proportion to P2 cards for there to be suitable quantities in the "top 10%" In other words, for every P2 card to be made, four exceptional SD cards must be available. And, 36 other cards must be discarded/sold at "sufficient" quality.

It is difficult to see how this model would continue to function if there is insufficient demand for the "36" SD cards. This is actually troubling.

This could be a real quality control issue in the future if demand for P2 cards exceeds the supply of the "really, really good SD cards" because then what will be left? Cards with too many errors to work reliably? It is difficult to see how the model of always skimming from the top could work -- sooner than later, Panasonic would need to use mid-grade SD to meet demand for P2.

Perhaps then, manufacturing processess would have improved enough to deliver highly reliable cards in quantity? And, in turn, reduce prices? I hope so.

Panasonic really should address this issue. I am curious to know how they will handle this situation. Will there be enough of the good SD cards to make good P2 cards? Or, is this all inconsequential? Hmmm....
 
esperman said:
your kidding right? Since when was anything Iomega reliable? :huh:
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ZIP disk became a major part of my college years. I used to love them. I remeber when Apple started making built in Zip drives on their graphic design machines, you could do Photoshop all day.
Walter_Graff said:
Rarely as I was told. And this is the second time I heard this. I also heard it from someone at WWOR TV in NY. It's not blank. There is an indication that something is on the card, but it doesn't show any pictures. I never experienced it myself. These are two stories from others.
Click to expand...
I can believe it. All these things have some kind of scary flaw. I'm sure the Firestore does too. This is where tape back up does come in handy.

-Nate
 
Brian, I think of P2 as riding what's going to be one huge SD flash memory wave. The idea that P2 will have the slightest effect on SD availability is impossible. SD memory will only get larger in capacity, cheaper, and faster. So from today forward, P2 only gets cheaper and easier to make. Samsung just announced 32 GB SD chips, and phones, MP3 players, and laptops will be driving the demand for flash. But Panasonic has to be careful because they've got a window for P2 before "HD transfer speed" grade flash memory becomes a commodity. What's to stop another manufacturer from making a camera that accepts their own proprietary flash raids or even a generic card that the user can snap in suitable flash chips. So Panasonic can't price themselves out of the market while that window closes.
 
i've read news stories on yahoo that say that the demand for flash memory is already outpacing disk based storage, and soon will make disc based harddrives pretty much obsolete. at the very least my studio will be alot quiter...
 
Walter, I'm not sure about P2, but the new software upgrade for the current XDCAM cameras allows the proxy files to be recorded to Memory Stick Duo cards. Could this be what he was referring to?
 
Soon standard hard drive will start to use solid state. It is already common in high demand applications like space ships and jet fighters due to the constantly changing G-forces. When consumer users begin to adopt this technology, prices will crash down.

If P2 can get a good foothold before that, I am sure it will do well. However, if the market is saturated by other systems that suit current needs better, it may be too late. If Sony pick up P2, I will revise my earlier bets on XDCAM, and put money on P2.

Can someone write a program that backs up P2 straight to an optical disc please, it will save a lot of time. Backing up the data will always be a concern.
 
If there is a memory chip avaliable that makes SD cards 32 GB, does this mean there is a fat chance we might see a 128GB P2 soon? I don't quite understand if the P2 card is made of 4 SD cards adding their capacity, or if it's made of 4 redundant cards just for the added speed...

Could anybody clarify this for me?

Thanks!
 
It's a RAID 0, so they add their capacity and their speed. No error protection though. That's why they must use the best SD cards. If one fails, all the contents get lost...
 
Wow, so we might be getting close to 128GB P2... Well, that is one hour HD footage, with two hot swappable drives. That would please the most demanding of the event videographers...

If it takes a year for it to happen, it will still be only six months after the camera release, wich is not too shabby at all. I just hope they end up costing less than the camera... Or we would have to start renting media instead of buying...
 
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