what i have so far for a short
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jaredsilvia
Member
story arc is where it's at.
Once you have your beginning, middle (big part), end and a few little key points here and there (plot commitment/rubicon, low point, turning point) you pretty much just have to fill in the middle with those nagging little details like character development interesting dialogue and plot movement. Thats all easy. Someone learns something about themselves, we learn about personal details of someone(s) and then that/those someone(s) die. Only the attractive/vulnerable girl and wishy washy reluctant hero escape, and in the end they share some sort of passionate kiss and maybe some hot whatchacallit. You stick with that formula, my friend, and... yeah, you'll get it.
(was just thinking, rather than rancid sarcasm, maybe I shold give you a real tip - may I suggest Chris Baty's "No Plot No Problem"? It's a book about writing a novel from a 0 point, but the same tips can apply in writing a screenplay and may just turn out a good result - also, assuming you haven't already read it, Syd Field's "Screenplay" is a pretty standard text on creating screen works)
Once you have your beginning, middle (big part), end and a few little key points here and there (plot commitment/rubicon, low point, turning point) you pretty much just have to fill in the middle with those nagging little details like character development interesting dialogue and plot movement. Thats all easy. Someone learns something about themselves, we learn about personal details of someone(s) and then that/those someone(s) die. Only the attractive/vulnerable girl and wishy washy reluctant hero escape, and in the end they share some sort of passionate kiss and maybe some hot whatchacallit. You stick with that formula, my friend, and... yeah, you'll get it.
(was just thinking, rather than rancid sarcasm, maybe I shold give you a real tip - may I suggest Chris Baty's "No Plot No Problem"? It's a book about writing a novel from a 0 point, but the same tips can apply in writing a screenplay and may just turn out a good result - also, assuming you haven't already read it, Syd Field's "Screenplay" is a pretty standard text on creating screen works)
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sean90291 said:
Interesting.
I've learned that you don't step back and learn what it's about until you've finished your first or second draft. Coming out and saying "I want to write about world hunger and fit it into a drama, with the government standing for.." yada dada doesn't really help anything and you run the risk of being a little TOO pretentious.
Write what comes to mind, piece it and sew it together, then step back and see what you have to work with.
Chris Messineo
Veteran
xfoo said:
I would suggest you ask yourself a lot of questions and begin answering them, because what you have so far is empty of plot, conflict, and character (the building blocks of a story).
Try starting with the characters, who are they? Why do they like and dislike? What are their desires? What are their flaws? What do they think of each other?
Once your characters start to feel real, then you can begin to let them behave in this imaginary world you are creating for them.
Chris
Kholi said:
This model may work briliantly for you and others but in general, for most people, it's not the best way to go. Most writers have some form of outline--in your head or on paper. Heading off into the wild blue yonder without any navigational aids or basic steering mechanism works for some but not most. So i'd caution new writer's against taking that approach.
Kholi said:
okay then tell us how you can write an outline yet not know the topic. It seems to me that even before starting an outline you should have a general sense of the main idea or concept you're writing about, be it world hunger, political corruption, coming of age, or finding buried treasure or any other topic or consideration.
If you're saying that a person should avoid trying to come up with some profound philosophical message until after the story is blocked out, then I'd take that a step further and say that AT NO POINT should a "profound" message be contemplated or engineered into a story.
Chris Messineo
Veteran
If I may jump in, I think you both are probably saying the same thing and just talking about the difference between plot and theme.
Certainly, most people would recommend you know your plot before you begin writing (although there are people out there who just prefer winging it).
Theme on the other hand is much more elusive. While people often have a theme in mind when they start, just as often it sneaks up on them, and in most good stories (IMHO) it is woven into the subtext of the story.
Chris
Certainly, most people would recommend you know your plot before you begin writing (although there are people out there who just prefer winging it).
Theme on the other hand is much more elusive. While people often have a theme in mind when they start, just as often it sneaks up on them, and in most good stories (IMHO) it is woven into the subtext of the story.
Chris
I almost have the feeling that what Kholi is saying is keep your stories grounded, don't aim for profundity or try and change the world. Which is certainly wise advice.
Nonetheless, even with theme, it strikes me as unorthodox to write an entire script then go through it trying to flesh out or find a theme. But if it works for you then use it!
I read a well reasoned article that claimed theme is unimportant in screenplays. Personally, I don't feel it's essential, but it's better to have it then not to have it . "Terminator" was a great script and movie but there wasn't a whole lot of theme there. It was essentially a chase movie.
Nonetheless, even with theme, it strikes me as unorthodox to write an entire script then go through it trying to flesh out or find a theme. But if it works for you then use it!
I read a well reasoned article that claimed theme is unimportant in screenplays. Personally, I don't feel it's essential, but it's better to have it then not to have it . "Terminator" was a great script and movie but there wasn't a whole lot of theme there. It was essentially a chase movie.
Chris Messineo
Veteran
Actually, I would argue that "Terminator" (a great flick) does have a theme. It is about believing/trusting yourself. Conversely, "Terminator 2" (yet another great flick) is about believing/trusting others. Neither of these themes hits you over the head, but that is what makes them so effective, IMHO.brianluce said:
Chris
CMessineo said:
I'm not picking a fight here but I didn't get that at all. I'd argue that the issue of trust in T1 was related more to Sarah Connor's trust of the Michael Bihn character than trusting herself. I didn't get much in the way of inner struggle or arc from Sarah Connor.
As I commented earlier, I don't believe T1 was a script that had much emphasis on theme. But if I were to look for one, i'd be more inclined to focus on the relentless, singleminded pursuit by the cyborg. I thought that came across powerfully and there must be something thematic about it.
Chris Messineo
Veteran
First, I have to apologize for the major "thread-jacking".
Second, this is definitely not a fight, just an interesting discussion.
As for "Terminator", Sarah is definitely the protagonist. She starts as a timid/fearful character and in the end discovers an inner strength she never knew she had. That was the theme I was referring to. It also tied in nicely with T2 and it showed how that inner resolve, taken to the extreme, could lead to her own mania/isolation and lack of trust in others.
However, there are probably many themes going on and that one certainly does not discount the one you mention.
Chris
Second, this is definitely not a fight, just an interesting discussion.
As for "Terminator", Sarah is definitely the protagonist. She starts as a timid/fearful character and in the end discovers an inner strength she never knew she had. That was the theme I was referring to. It also tied in nicely with T2 and it showed how that inner resolve, taken to the extreme, could lead to her own mania/isolation and lack of trust in others.
However, there are probably many themes going on and that one certainly does not discount the one you mention.
Chris
CMessineo said:
This is starting to get confusing because what you're describing in Sarah Connor I would think of a classic character arc which is different from theme.
I see a different dovetailing in T2 as well, I'd say it was going from a willingness to trust the Michael Bihn character to a willingness to trust a cyborg--not discounting your analysis, seems spot on.
Then there's T3, I think it was about helicopters and supermodels or something...
This is testimony to the skill of cameron's writing ability, something he doesn't get due props for.
Thats wierd. I thought the T series was more around the theme of how our own advancement, our own tools, and most important, a "blind' persuit of Science (much like genetics today), would lead to our own destruction. Very similar to how Stanley Kubrick's "2001: A Space Odessey" goes...
artofsuntzu
Active member
Brianluce's more interesting comment about theme order is one I've grappled with as well.
But I have to say, that I'm leaning toward story first, theme later. And I'm not alone, nor unorthodox. I was pleased to see that Stephen King, in his book on writing, writes an entire first draft before going back to extract the theme that grows out of the characters/plot. Then, he tightens the story to make it more in line with the theme. (I remember he used The Stand as reference).
Anyway, Brianluce's theme-order is shared by gurus like Michael Walker (Power Screenwriting, which I love). And theme-first goes a long way to ensure that stories have depth.
But, I find that growing from theme-first, puts me (maybe just me) in a creative environment that takes months to sort out. Then, after 4 months of sorting out the first draft, the script has heart, but might miss out on adrenaline.
When I start with plot-first, I know I'm connected with the audience at an entertainment level: I'm manipulating their emotions with the plot 'visuals'. Now, the first draft takes a few weeks. Now, with developed plot/characters, the theme seems to grow out of their motivation. It seems much easier to answer 'what's the point?' and connect with the audience at an emotional level using a theme that's organic to the characters/plot.
Is this approach foreign? After all, my screenplays are written so that I have something to direct.
But I have to say, that I'm leaning toward story first, theme later. And I'm not alone, nor unorthodox. I was pleased to see that Stephen King, in his book on writing, writes an entire first draft before going back to extract the theme that grows out of the characters/plot. Then, he tightens the story to make it more in line with the theme. (I remember he used The Stand as reference).
Anyway, Brianluce's theme-order is shared by gurus like Michael Walker (Power Screenwriting, which I love). And theme-first goes a long way to ensure that stories have depth.
But, I find that growing from theme-first, puts me (maybe just me) in a creative environment that takes months to sort out. Then, after 4 months of sorting out the first draft, the script has heart, but might miss out on adrenaline.
When I start with plot-first, I know I'm connected with the audience at an entertainment level: I'm manipulating their emotions with the plot 'visuals'. Now, the first draft takes a few weeks. Now, with developed plot/characters, the theme seems to grow out of their motivation. It seems much easier to answer 'what's the point?' and connect with the audience at an emotional level using a theme that's organic to the characters/plot.
Is this approach foreign? After all, my screenplays are written so that I have something to direct.
DarkMatter
Veteran
I think this is more along the lines of what he's looking for...
While playing one of the kids falls through the floor boards into the dark expanse below. The others try to help, but being weak, due to their youth; they end up falling with him. Helpless in the dark with only a stray beam of light emanating from the cracked and withered floorboards high overhead they watch as the sunlight slowly fades and the darkness consumes them, awakening their fears. Days pass and hunger grows gnawing at their insides. Slowly all the boys turn in a ravenous longing for food. Susy becomes uneasy.... She also becomes dinner......
Was that so hard.... I think he just wanted a little help getting started. Use it or lose it!
While playing one of the kids falls through the floor boards into the dark expanse below. The others try to help, but being weak, due to their youth; they end up falling with him. Helpless in the dark with only a stray beam of light emanating from the cracked and withered floorboards high overhead they watch as the sunlight slowly fades and the darkness consumes them, awakening their fears. Days pass and hunger grows gnawing at their insides. Slowly all the boys turn in a ravenous longing for food. Susy becomes uneasy.... She also becomes dinner......
Was that so hard.... I think he just wanted a little help getting started. Use it or lose it!
DarkMatter
Veteran
I also do dinner parties!