FS5: What glass Sony or Rokinon

[Liam Hall]

'Docs' can mean just about anything these days as well.

Oh, yes. Funny you should say that... ...I saw JPNola posted a BTS doc in one of these threads. Having just shot one myself, using primes and zooms, our two films couldn't be more different. Hope to be able to post that job in a month or so.

EDIT: For Skyfall he used 4 primes. 27,32, 35 and 40mm.

Anamorphic though, no?

Until such a time as I won't be able to guarantee getting the shot any other way, I'll put image quality over and above ease of use every time and so for me, I'll always prefer to use a prime where possible.

Yep. But for some, sitting on a zoom at F/11 and getting coverage is all that is important. I do wonder if there is an affordable 2/3rd inch chipped camera that would be a better solution for them.

 

[Ben Scott]

Anamorphic though, no?

Nope spherical Master Primes with a 2.40:1 Extraction taken from the Alexa.

Master Anamorphics weren't released until the year after.

 

[Donny 123]

haha I'm trying but it's just you and me pushing it now!

'Docs' can mean just about anything these days as well. You have super cinematic and stylised stuff like The Imposter or you have Errol Morris doing the straight down the lens stuff or you have fly on the wall following people about stuff. Plenty of room for either approach in that vast sphere. With the advent of S35 being ubiquitous I thought we were all trying to get away from a 2/3 sensor camera look and feel and I'm not sure how much relevance that way of working has anymore outside actual ENG stuff.


RD has said a few times he'll have a box of Master Primes and a couple of Angie zooms and will pick from that what is right for the shot. But 9 times out of 10 he goes for his preferred focal lengths. Better to have it and not need it. The flipside is of course someone like Ridley (or Tony) Scott who wants all his close ups shot on 100-200mm focal lengths for maximum separation but who also wants to embrace super wides for vistas. It is said that Spielberg sees the world in 21mm because that is his default focal length until he needs something else.

EDIT: For Skyfall he used 4 primes. 27,32, 35 and 40mm.


I might change lenses 4-5 times a day. There's always someone to hold a lens and if not I'll wing it. It's really not the dealbreaker one might think it would be. You'll spend far more time during a shoot day checking your phone and texting people having downtime than playing about changing lenses... Setting iris and focus is still a thing on zooms so no time savings there.

Until such a time as I won't be able to guarantee getting the shot any other way, I'll put image quality over and above ease of use every time and so for me, I'll always prefer to use a prime where possible.

haha yes checking the phone .. thats so true !.. by ENG was meaning the zooms that were in use for 2/3 inch sensors.. well most of time on a zoom you dont need to change the iris within the same scene .. and par focal can help with focus.. bang wide and you know its in focus.. but as we have got to page 3 .. I agree totally.. its just how you want to work.. but I wouldn't say that shooting primes is going to give you better quality, than a good zoom.. but it will be alot better for your back !

 

[Ben Scott]

Yep. But for some, sitting on a zoom at F/11 and getting coverage is all that is important. I do wonder if there is an affordable 2/3rd inch chipped camera that would be a better solution for them.

Yup, and this is the bit where I'm going to start to sound like a real dick.... But getting 'coverage' is the sort of thing a videographer does. Crafting a frame is something a DP does. Both completely valid but one is reactive whilst the other is proactive.

Don't get me wrong, I've just done a week-long job in Germany with a locked off shot and me pressing record 3 times a day - this was not a DP gig in any shape or form and I'll never look at, let alone show anyone the results and it certainly pays the bills. But it's not the work I strive to do and it doesn't fit into my normal working methodology.

 

[Donny 123]

Oh, yes. Funny you should say that... ...I saw JPNola posted a BTS doc in one of these threads. Having just shot one myself, using primes and zooms, our two films couldn't be more different. Hope to be able to post that job in a month or so.




Anamorphic though, no?



Yep. But for some, sitting on a zoom at F/11 and getting coverage is all that is important. I do wonder if there is an affordable 2/3rd inch chipped camera that would be a better solution for them.

You would shoot on a prime at 1.4 on a sunny day..? if its F11 on a zoom its going to be F22 on a prime..Primes let more light through.. my zoom goes down to 2.8 but it doesnt mean you have to shoot everything shallow DOF.. this is a bit of curse of the Joe 5D movement ..

 

[Ben Scott]

I wouldn't say that shooting primes is going to give you better quality, than a good zoom..

The thing is though, they really will.

Otherwise people who have the choice wouldn't use them. Zeiss make some amazing cine zooms - better than just about any stills glass out there. But they're not Master primes.

Likewise when people talk about how Speedboosters make a perfect lens even pefecter with no downsides, if that was true Zeiss would implement them into the design of their best lenses.

And in the world of stills glass it's not even close. What are the sharpest zooms out there?

Look at the DXOMark rankings and see how many zooms flag behind primes in all sorts of ratings.

http://www.dxomark.com/lenses/launc...Options=false&viewMode=list&yDataType=rankDxo

And then add in the additional mechanical and breathing issues associated with zooms and there is a very clear advantage to using primes when optical and mechanical quality is of utmost importance.

Happy page 3 guys

 

[Donny 123]

Yes they will on a film or commercial set.. not arguing that.. was talking about doc,no control type situations.. and of course Cine zooms.. not $600 stills zooms.. go for page 4? .. Ive rattled Liams cage..should be good for a page ..

 

[Ben Scott]

You would shoot on a prime at 1.4 on a sunny day..? if its F11 on a zoom its going to be F22 on a prime..Primes let more light through.. my zoom goes down to 2.8 but it doesnt mean you have to shoot everything shallow DOF.. this is a bit of curse of the Joe 5D movement ..

Absolutely I would if the shot needed it.

Barley shoot Screengrab- Sony FS7 and Otus 55mm f1.4 by Ben Scott, on Flickr


EDIT: Wait what? Primes let more light through? T-stop is an accurate measure of how much light is transmitted. It makes no difference whether that is a prime or zoom. F-stop is a measurement of the aperture size and is less accurate, but still the same constants should apply.

 

[Ben Scott]

Yes they will on a film or commercial set.. not arguing that.. was talking about doc,no control type situations.. and of course Cine zooms.. not $600 stills zooms.. go for page 4? .. Ive rattled Liams cage..should be good for a page ..

In which case what are you comparing? Is a Zeiss LWZ better than Canon L glass? Almost certainly. Is it better than a dedicated cine prime? Doubtful.


Absolutely in a 'no control' situation a zoom might be a good idea. I tend to have 2 in my bag at all times Contax 28-85 and 80-200.

But how many of those are you doing? Personally I try to limit the amount of 'no control don't know what's happening next' shoots I do. I don't like doing jobs where I can't guarantee a certain level of quality. Unless it's loads of money and they don't give a **** about quality and my name will never be near it

If that doesn't bring in in enough posts to get us another page after my videographer baiting I don't know what will...

 

[Donny 123]

Absolutely I would if the shot needed it.

Barley shoot Screengrab- Sony FS7 and Otus 55mm f1.4 by Ben Scott, on Flickr


EDIT: Wait what? Primes let more light through? T-stop is an accurate measure of how much light is transmitted. It makes no difference whether that is a prime or zoom. F-stop is a measurement of the aperture size and is less accurate, but still the same constants should apply.

You would get the same shot at F8 zoomed in.. depends on your focal length.. thats not a wide angle unless you have cropped it for the posting

Sure but a zoom has a ton of glass in it.. thats cuts down the amount of light getting through.. a Prime has less of course .. thats why you can have a $300 1.4 Samyang .. but only a T4 S10,000 Canon cine zoom..

 

[Donny 123]

In which case what are you comparing? Is a Zeiss LWZ better than Canon L glass? Almost certainly. Is it better than a dedicated cine prime? Doubtful.


Absolutely in a 'no control' situation a zoom might be a good idea. I tend to have 2 in my bag at all times Contax 28-85 and 80-200.

But how many of those are you doing? Personally I try to limit the amount of 'no control don't know what's happening next' shoots I do. I don't like doing jobs where I can't guarantee a certain level of quality. Unless it's loads of money and they don't give a s*%t about quality and my name will never be near it

If that doesn't bring in in enough posts to get us another page after my videographer baiting I don't know what will...

I do quite few doc,s where there is no control over what is going on.. and /or very little.. recently Ive been on fishing boats.. ship yards.. hospitals.. try telling them to do that again !.. air traffic control.. alot of kitchens .. those guys will definitely not do anything again or wait for you.. racing cars.. factories.. lots of places where they are not going to stop,do things again.. or even when you can have control its actually better just to let it happen .. alot of doc,s about people are like this.. you can orchestrate the whole thing but you dont get the moments.. TBH yes alot of times in a doc the content is the most important thing.. and the person that can capture it the best will get known as a "good" camera person for doc,s.. and being able to light a decent interview ..

 

[Donny 123]

BTW The great Mr Deakins.. got to be the best living DP .. started out in doc,s with a 10-1 zoom.. getting coverage .. often at T11.. Barry Ackroyd too.. all the good UK DP,s seem to have come from a doc back ground.. some videographers were ok after all

 

[Ben Scott]

I used to shoot on a PD150 but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything

I shoot a lot of cars and the like too and don't run into problems. Turns out maybe we just have preferred working practices.

Edit: Vitorio Storraro might have something to say about that.

 

[Ben Scott]

You would get the same shot at F8 zoomed in.. depends on your focal length.. thats not a wide angle unless you have cropped it for the posting

Sure but a zoom has a ton of glass in it.. thats cuts down the amount of light getting through.. a Prime has less of course .. thats why you can have a $300 1.4 Samyang .. but only a T4 S10,000 Canon cine zoom..

I have a 1.8 Sigma 18-35 that cost £500.

Cutaway of an Otus 55mm

Cutaway of a Tamron 15-30

 

[Liam Hall]

You would shoot on a prime at 1.4 on a sunny day..? if its F11 on a zoom its going to be F22 on a prime..Primes let more light through.. my zoom goes down to 2.8 but it doesnt mean you have to shoot everything shallow DOF.. this is a bit of curse of the Joe 5D movement ..

Sorry, been out walking the dog...

There's more to shooting on primes than shallow DoF. I'm not anti-zoom BTW, but generally prefer the look of a good prime, even at the same f/stop.

 

[Liam Hall]

BTW The great Mr Deakins.. got to be the best living DP .. started out in doc,s with a 10-1 zoom.. getting coverage .. often at T11.. Barry Ackroyd too.. all the good UK DP,s seem to have come from a doc back ground.. some videographers were ok after all

Yes, we all know that. And his number one piece of advice was don't take more kit than you carry. I agree with him, though most of my clients demand way too much gear most of the time. Tomorrow, I'm off to Paris with just my FS7 one additional case and a monopod. Still got a couple of primes in there though

I'll add, last year I worked with a really great DoP. He had an F55 with two Cabrio zooms. He used to work with primes but said he was fed up changing lenses. Fair enough, luckily an ITV series paid for his shiny new glass.

 

[Donny 123]

Yes, we all know that. And his number one piece of advice was don't take more kit than you carry. I agree with him, though most of my clients demand way too much gear most of the time. Tomorrow, I'm off to Paris with just my FS7 one additional case and a monopod. Still got a couple of primes in there though

I'll add, last year I worked with a really great DoP. He had an F55 with two Cabrio zooms. He used to work with primes but said he was fed up changing lenses. Fair enough, luckily an ITV series paid for his shiny new glass.

Nice the 2 Cabrio set.. all you need ! if you can afford them .. it just has to be quicker too.. you can set the frame exactly without pushing a dolly around or shifting a tripod a few inches at a time..

 

[Donny 123]

I have a 1.8 Sigma 18-35 that cost £500.

Cutaway of an Otus 55mm

Cutaway of a Tamron 15-30

Ben .. now I feel bad you have cut your lenses in two.. your commitment shows through sir.. yes of course no right way.. each to their own.. just trying to get the page count up.. but watch out when all those US based videographers wake up..

 

[Liam Hall]

Nice the 2 Cabrio set.. all you need ! if you can afford them .. it just has to be quicker too.. you can set the frame exactly without pushing a dolly around or shifting a tripod a few inches at a time..

I find shooting long on a zoom is fine, but between 20mm and 135, a good prime simply delivers a more pleasing image. I can't remember the last time I used my 24-70mm zoom. Of course, speed often dictates choice. But so does one's method and intention. Often, I will cover a scene quickly using zooms and then whack on a 35mm or 24mm and get up close and personal.

 

[Donny 123]

I have a 1.8 Sigma 18-35 that cost £500.

Cutaway of an Otus 55mm

Cutaway of a Tamron 15-30

Not a good example though.. thats not a cine zoom.. its a cheap stills zoom..with a very limited range, to be par focal a cine zoom has alot more glass in it..and to have even close to a decent range.. thats why they are heavy,big and expensive.. not like the above