What camera gear can do shots like this?

I

ironpony

Carbonite Member
If you will just please fast forward to 4:44 in the clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V52AeJibEOY

The camera pulls back, then slides to the side as it moves forward diagonally. I tried coming up with some possible ideas but they would just create too much noise for the mic to pick up probably. What's the best gear for that? I was thinking maybe a tripod, with a slider attached it, but I don't know if they make sliders, that can rotate while on the tripod. I know that you can rotate the camera, while it's on the slider, but can you rotate the slider at the same time, while on the tripod? Thanks.
 
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I guess that is one very smooth studio floor with a camera dolly on wheels

Steadicam would work, but only a very good op would be able to keep the camera 'lock offs' static

Today I guess it would be done on a (wheeled) dolly on a smooth floor or with some sort of small crane (on track) with an extending boom - a sort of mini technochrane on dolly track

S
 
That's just it. Where I live a lot of the good available locations have carpet. I'm just learning about steadicam's myself so haven't figured out what the lock offs are. What about the slider idea?
 
A slider only goes in a straight line, but with a tripod head on the slider you can do some stuff but not move off that line

A lock off is holding a static shot - hard, but not impossible with a steadicam

S
 
Okay thanks. Yeah if only they invented sliders where the slider can turn as well, while on the tripod. Hmm, I can think it some more. Perhaps instead of purchasing more expensive gear, I can just rethink my shots. I suggested to my fellow filmmakers perhaps I could do shots like that but without tracking forward and just pan from one side of the scene to the other instead, but they said that just panning a wide shot that lasts so long will probably look too 'home video-ish' to most modern audiences, when trying to sell an impression.
 
Yes you can do this, but with the slider on a single point as the camera is slid away it can tip the single tripod over

If you had a slider (some exist) that has a weight that slides in opposition to the camera then the rig will not fall over

typically to use such a device you would need a 'dolly grip' to be operating the slider while you operated the head because as you slide forwards you need to pan backwards

Long valley are also on to something with their crazy new crane.. http://www.longvalleyequip.com/spyderjib.php

In reality you are best to learn the best shots you can make from some dolly track and some sticks by placing the track at an angle to the action..

S
 
Okay thanks. I don't know if I need a crane like that for any of the shots in the movie I want to make, but it sure looks cool! I think I just need a slider, tripod, and a steadicam and maybe that will be it. I can't see using a jib or a crane for anything as long as I have those two, unless I am wrong and it would make a great double for any of those instead? But I want to be sure it's worth the money. I was going to use a steadicam for shots where you have to move all around, a fluid head tripod for shots, that require nothing more than staying in one spot and panning when needed. And a slider for tracking forward and back, and some specific shots, I want to get while sliding the camera along the floor, pointed up. Do I need a crane for any of these that would do a better job?
 
Okay thanks, but I'm a little lost now. I thought the slider was used on a tripod for smoothness. If not, then what's the point of that, over other gear set ups? Also, what's a 'sticks shot'?

Here's a scene from the same movie, if you fast forward to 1:44:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCx9hnWr40Y&feature=relmfu

As you can see the camera rotates around the characters a lot. Perhaps sticks or sliders are not necessarily the way to go, if I want more shots that rotate while tracking.
 
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Stick = tripod

A slider is kind of smooth, but because the item you are moving (the camera alone) is light typically moving a heavy thing (camera+tripod) moves smoother

Push a car, its hard to get going and hard to stop - smooth
Push a shopping trolly and you can jiggle it any way - less smooth

The advantage of a slider over a dolly is it is easier to set up outdoors than track

Rotating shots, either circular track with no floor in shot or steadicam or I dont know

You can draw an amazing shot list in your head - booming, rotating, flying through windows

You will really only get a feel for this stuff by testing, using, borowing, assisting, hiring

If you have high personal standards you will find the simplest moving shots, even a little slide, are vey hard to execute well

And by moving shots I don't mean sliding past some flowers in the park I mean moving the camera in time with actors and the script to bring value to those moves.. very hard

S
 
I think you guys are looking at a pedestal or crab dolly, remember cameras those days would weigh extremely heavy so a simple tripod, jib or slider would never work. Pedestals and crab dollies are able to "crab" with their wheels, so they can move back, turn the wheels right and move to the right. Its pretty cool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEeOEAxk134

(Dont ask if you want to buy one, its definitely out of your budget range heh heh. If you're still curious... 80-120k ish)
 
Sometimes I think it's better to describe the standard way to achieve a shot because while the specific technology and personnel needed may be out of the reach of a filmmaker, at least they can think about recreating it on their level rather than re-invent the wheel (although some wheels could do with re-invention)!

If I was to have to execute the shot in the reference clip, it would be with our standard dolly (generally a Chapman Hybrid or PeeWee). If the floor we are shooting on happens to be smooth enough to roll on without bumps, we can quickly set the three marks and get right to it. The dolly has various steering modes; for this we would be in crab mode where all four wheels turn together. The move from one to two is a simple pullback, and then the dolly grip rotates the handle for the new direction (sometimes he will lay a length of tape that helps show him the trajectory to the next mark) and off we go.

If the floor is not smooth enough to ride on directly, we'll go to dance floor, which is simply 4x8 sheets of birch topped with Centrex (a thin plastic sheet). We set the parameters of the shot i.e. where the camera needs to get to within the three points of the move as seen here, and the dolly grips calculates how much floor he needs to contain the moves. Depending on the intricacies of the location, this can turn into quite a Tetris-match as small pieces of floor are used or cut to size to accomodate doorways and immovable furniture etc. The Centrex is laid offset to the seams of the wood to minimize bumps, and the seams are paper-taped to hold the floor together.

One of the greatest pieces of gear that saves all of the time necessary for dance floor is the 15' Technocrane, which is small enough to fit in many locations and allows for great flexibility in designing shots. It is of course quite expensive and requires additional personnel.

As Sam noted, any kind of moving camera takes practice to pull off well. A locked-off camera pushed on a decent slider is pretty easy--a solid Steadicam shot is very hard. You can see in that Spyder jib video that one of the operators is a bit more adept at moving the camera smoothly than the other.
 
kennedymax said:
It looks like a simple crab dolly shot to me.
Click to expand...

The dolly grip of that shot is feeling like a boss, for just pulling back, turning the handles right a bit and pushing forward haha

EcGx.png


Crappy cartoon above I made, but you see the idea


If you want to do this on a budget, without having to rent a fisher or chapman, here's an idea, for a small move:
Doorway dolly back, and have a medium length slider on the dolly diagonally, and once the dolly stops, push diagonally, but you'll have to do some rigging if you're trying this on a heavier camera system.

So in the end its just easier to crab it or use a pedestal

But this is a cheesy TV looking move, if you're trying this on a film... Good luck, you'll have to work on it to make it look good
 
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Okay thanks. But like I said most of the locations where I live, are good cheap locations, but this disadvantage is, is that they have carpet, or floors that are not smooth enough. I want to make a feature film in the future, and practice for it, so I need to expand my camera movements. All I have been using on previous projects are pans and tracks pretty much, but what else should I do for one continuous master shot take? What do you micro-budgeters do, without having all this equipment? And there are no types of steadicam's out there that can stay still, if the operator is standing still? Like any that you can wear around the torso and not have to lift the camera, you can just let go, and it will stay still, if need be?
 
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ironpony said:
Okay thanks. But like I said most of the locations where I live, are good cheap locations, but this disadvantage is, is that they have carpet, or floors that are not smooth enough. I want to make a feature film in the future, and practice for it, so I need to expand my camera movements. All I have been using on previous projects are pans and tracks pretty much, but what else should I do for one continuous master shot take? What do you micro-budgeters do, without having all this equipment? And there are no types of steadicam's out there that can stay still, if the operator is standing still? Like any that you can wear around the torso and not have to lift the camera, you can just let go, and it will stay still, if need be?
Click to expand...


You can always use dolly track, you can use that on even the most unlevel and rough grounds (the trick is leveling it perfectly)
Its pretty difficult to keep the steadicam perfectly still, even with a very heavy system, you'll still get slight movements, but its your best bet. What you'd want to do is to just hire an operator, most of them own their own rigs
 
Yeah it's just operators are hard to find where I live. And the tracks seem to only be able to go forward or back, unless you used curved tracks, but there are limitations and that gets tricky. I do also want a slider or dolly/track system for getting low shots along the floor. I can't dig a hole in the floor so I would need a really wide lens like 10mm to get the camera as far down as possible. What system is best for the floor? Are there any dollies and tracks for getting normal head level shots, that can also do extremely low angle shots as well? I want to buy the least amount of equipment as possible instead of buying quite a few different systems, so dolly than can double for these types of shots as well would help, instead of getting two different kinds. Basically I want the camera as low on the floor as possible, but on a tripod head, so I can turn it, and on a sliding system to slide back and forth while turning simultaneously. A slider can do that, but that's another system to buy.
 
ironpony said:
Yeah it's just operators are hard to find where I live. And the tracks seem to only be able to go forward or back, unless you used curved tracks, but there are limitations and that gets tricky. I do also want a slider or dolly/track system for getting low shots along the floor. I can't dig a hole in the floor so I would need a really wide lens like 10mm to get the camera as far down as possible. What system is best for the floor? Are there any dollies and tracks for getting normal head level shots, that can also do extremely low angle shots as well? I want to buy the least amount of equipment as possible instead of buying quite a few different systems, so dolly than can double for these types of shots as well would help, instead of getting two different kinds. Basically I want the camera as low on the floor as possible, but on a tripod head, so I can turn it, and on a sliding system to slide back and forth while turning simultaneously. A slider can do that, but that's another system to buy.
Click to expand...

In a previous post I mentioned you could use track to move back, and a slider on the dolly to finish the move, but what you are looking for now would be a nice doorway dolly system. If you want to get high and very low shots, Id suggest something like a Matthews doorway dolly (or any other doorway dolly would work, but the Matthews is awesome) and then attach a mitchell base on it, with some offsets to be able to mount the camera low on the side of the dolly

You can simply put the sticks on the dolly to get a higher shot (or if you really want to spend money, get a bazooka) then with the low-mode adapter you can have the camera very low.

Here's an example of one by Premier Studio Equipment:

052015X200.JPG




Some may recommend a hi-hat or lo-hat, but if you want to go VERY low, you have to consider the height of not only the cribbing/wedges + doly track + track wheels + pneumatic dolly wheels + dolly platform + pancake/board + hi/lo-hat. That can get to around 2 1/2 feet. THEN add the tripod head and then the height from that to the lens? Its not really low-low if you ask me. With this you'll be able to have the camera right next to the dolly

The lowmode would work great, and even then you can use some more parts to put the tripod head upside down, with a cage to do an underslung mode (or whatever its called, veteran dolly grips correct me)

I'm not sure what camera system you are using, I'm starting off from what you'd need for small cameras and up (yes even those big panavisions), but if you have a budget or anything let me know
 
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Upside-down heads don't work well at all. They are designed to counterbalance top weight, not underslung, and gravity takes over. You end up having to use a fair amount of force to tilt the camera, which rarely looks good. Fine if you don't need to pan and tilt though. And in this situation, instead of using a cage, might as well just flip the head with camera attached and then re-flip the image in post (aka "poor man's low mode", from the Steadicam world).

To the OP on the question about Steadicam--the best operators can indeed do lockoffs solid enough to fool most viewers, under the right conditions. Theoretically we are getting close to the point where mediocre Steadicam can be turned into amazing Steadicam with post-stabilization added--I'm seeing some astonishing things happening there--but it's still not quite right.

More to the point: long master shots require a lot of talent and discipline to pull off. Your actors need to be really solid, your crew dialed in, and the material has to be worthy of that style of shooting. Directorially, you have to know what effect that will have on the pacing of the final film and have a really good sense of the internal pacing of the shot itself. You've got no way to pull up the dead spaces in the edit. Most of the times that I see inexperienced filmmakers attempt this, they fail. Often miserably. And have to resort to jump-cutting around in the shot, or slugging in music to fill lulls etc. It's an extremely delicate thing to pull off. Yes, it is how classic films were made--but unless you are looking to directly emulate them, it's not as simple as that any more. Audiences today expect a specific kind of pacing and it is challenging to achieve. For every Children of Men (practically a master-class in technique), there's an Atonement (the long Steadicam shot on the beach was pretty much a bore).
 
Well I plan on getting close up shot coverage of the characters too, for something to cut too, just in case something in the long shot screws up. I hope I can pull it off. I don't think having two more feet to go, is low enough though. If someone has their face pressed against the floor for example, I want to be able to line up the camera, face level and slide it, low enough that you can get some of the floor with the face, in front of it.
 
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