What affordable cameras will Hollywood most recognize and let you use 4 reality shows
- Thread starter JoeJITSU
- Start date
DCTBradJohnson
Active member
I would research that quite a bit before you do it. When I work with networks they supply the camera you shoot on. Black Swan is nominated for tons of awards and scenes of it were shot with the 7D. I was hired by Fox to run camera on a reality show and they brought a 7D from LA for me to shoot on. Toyota Scion threw a huge all day concert in my college town of Lawrence, six venues, thirty something bands, and the whole thing was shot on Sony EX1's, which is not P2 or DV, its very similar to the HMC's and Canon media cards. I think going your suggested route is going backwards in todays new industry.
As to why? It all depends on who their editor is, who the producer is, what tools they are comfortable working with, the budget, and most importantly THE CONTENT.
As to why? It all depends on who their editor is, who the producer is, what tools they are comfortable working with, the budget, and most importantly THE CONTENT.
Lucas Adamson
Well-known member
Panasonic AF101 is fully BBC approved, which counts for a lot. It also smokes the Canon 7D for image quality, functionality and in every other conceivable way, IMHO. Well worth getting for Cinema shooting.
Really? I've heard it was being reviewed. I didn't know it was fully approved. The BBC approved AVCHD for broadcast? Or does the AF101 need some type of external recorder?
Do you have a link?
bill totolo
Veteran
Seems like the HVX, Z1U and EX1 are the workhorses in that arena.
Though I know the EX1 isn't tape or P2 based, it still get tons of work.
Though I know the EX1 isn't tape or P2 based, it still get tons of work.
Please cite your source on this. If true, it's among the biggest of news to hit this forum in some time (right up there with Scarlet in 2010), and has major implications for the entire AVCCAM line.
As a side note, the 7D you bash actually is being used on various BBC productions.
Robert Ruffo
Well-known member
Black Swam has only one very short scene shot on 5D (almost no-permit subway shot), the rest is 16 mm. The 5D was never used in "normal" shooting circumstances. The 7D was not used at all.
Many networks forbid all DSLRs because high aliasing means poor broadcastability, something many members here do not understand. All that said, it is very easy to transfer anything to anything.
I would not suggest buying SD-DV.
7D is not BBC approved. Some shows use it, and the BBC puts up with it - that's different. 7D/5D seems to be embraced by very young no-money crowd, because they can afford it and it is great value, but also by a much older technically clueless crowd who think all digital is crap, so why not use the cheapest lightest crap? They simply do not understand the difference, or for non-objective personality-based reasons do not like Jim at Red.
The rest of us use Red or Alexa when shooting digital, and film when budget allows. 5D or 7D only come out when absolutely necessary, like in Black Swan when shooting under-the-radar in the subway. In other words, there has to be a specific reason: 99% of the time that reason is either stealth, tiny size or the need for a semi-disposable crash-cam.
It pretty amazing how good quality the 5D and 7D are for what they cost, but also amazing is how much better a Red or an Alexa is than any DSLR in terms of straight-up image quality (dynamic range, resolution, smooth, alias-free image) and latitude in post.
All this is not really opinion, just fact. I wish I had a 5D in film school, it's pretty awesome, but shooting pro work on a 5D if you can afford better is simply stupid.
Many networks forbid all DSLRs because high aliasing means poor broadcastability, something many members here do not understand. All that said, it is very easy to transfer anything to anything.
I would not suggest buying SD-DV.
7D is not BBC approved. Some shows use it, and the BBC puts up with it - that's different. 7D/5D seems to be embraced by very young no-money crowd, because they can afford it and it is great value, but also by a much older technically clueless crowd who think all digital is crap, so why not use the cheapest lightest crap? They simply do not understand the difference, or for non-objective personality-based reasons do not like Jim at Red.
The rest of us use Red or Alexa when shooting digital, and film when budget allows. 5D or 7D only come out when absolutely necessary, like in Black Swan when shooting under-the-radar in the subway. In other words, there has to be a specific reason: 99% of the time that reason is either stealth, tiny size or the need for a semi-disposable crash-cam.
It pretty amazing how good quality the 5D and 7D are for what they cost, but also amazing is how much better a Red or an Alexa is than any DSLR in terms of straight-up image quality (dynamic range, resolution, smooth, alias-free image) and latitude in post.
All this is not really opinion, just fact. I wish I had a 5D in film school, it's pretty awesome, but shooting pro work on a 5D if you can afford better is simply stupid.
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Cosimo Bullo
Veteran
Maybe tone it down just a notch, Rob. Many of us use the RED and 5d together, and we're not as 'stupid' as we may seem. No reason for calling people names here.
And the fact remains, if you want to shoot on the largest video sensor available, you're stuck with the 5d for now... sometimes we do and the red sits idle. Again, a choice, not because we're students or the like.
And the fact remains, if you want to shoot on the largest video sensor available, you're stuck with the 5d for now... sometimes we do and the red sits idle. Again, a choice, not because we're students or the like.
Cosimo Bullo
Veteran
And it was the 7d, by the way, in Black Swan.
By Stephen Pizzello
"We used a Canon 7D or 1D Mark IV for
all the subway scenes; I could just carry
a 7D and shoot on the subway all day
with a very small crew. I did some tests
with my wife beforehand to figure out
my ASA, my stop, and how I was going
to deal with the focus. I didn’t use any
rigs with it because I wasn’t trying to
shoot in the traditional way. I tested a
bunch of different exposures and then
brought the footage to Charlie
Hertzfeld at Technicolor, who put it in
the system so I could look at the highlights,
the moiré and the resolution.
Then I went back to the drawing board
to do more tests. The 7D has more
depth of field than the 5D, but I
needed that because I didn’t have a
follow-focus unit and needed to work
really fast. I shot everything documentary-
style. I did all the focus pulls by
hand, and we’d just look at it on the
camera’s monitor. I ended up shooting
on a Canon 24mm lens at 1,600 ASA
to get as much depth of field as possible
at a stop of T81⁄2."
By Stephen Pizzello
"We used a Canon 7D or 1D Mark IV for
all the subway scenes; I could just carry
a 7D and shoot on the subway all day
with a very small crew. I did some tests
with my wife beforehand to figure out
my ASA, my stop, and how I was going
to deal with the focus. I didn’t use any
rigs with it because I wasn’t trying to
shoot in the traditional way. I tested a
bunch of different exposures and then
brought the footage to Charlie
Hertzfeld at Technicolor, who put it in
the system so I could look at the highlights,
the moiré and the resolution.
Then I went back to the drawing board
to do more tests. The 7D has more
depth of field than the 5D, but I
needed that because I didn’t have a
follow-focus unit and needed to work
really fast. I shot everything documentary-
style. I did all the focus pulls by
hand, and we’d just look at it on the
camera’s monitor. I ended up shooting
on a Canon 24mm lens at 1,600 ASA
to get as much depth of field as possible
at a stop of T81⁄2."
We've discussed this in many other threads.
The format that the camera records, and, often more importantly the media they record to, is a key factor for producers. There are several things owner-operators of cameras are up against. First, a network-commissioned unscripted show will not typically hire camera packages from one person. They will rent from a house that can provide matching cameras (6 - 24 cameras on a show aren't uncommon) with appropriate AKS packages and back-up facilities when the cameras go down or are otherwise broken during production. Owner-ops, no matter how well networked, cannot provide this and an experienced proco will not risk expensive days on an owner-operator package. The exception would be the known and trusted DP having a RED or 5dII that he brings for a day or two of box rental for shooting promos or show open work. But usually, the network just hires a separate company for this work without much consultation.
Commissioned unscripted shows must acquire and deliver using formats and recording media as mandated by the network. There are allowable ratios for mixing formats. Long-GOP can make-up a certain amount of total footage against master-quality or other intra-frame formats on high-quality media like P2 cards or, still preferably, HDCam or DVCProHD tape stock. It isn't the producer who chooses what is acceptable - it is the network that finally mandates what can and should be used. Many shows do use long-GOP HDV for all their cameras, but the Tiffany Net, primetime shows are done on 2/3" shoulder-mount cameras for the most part.
Format and recording media aside, these larger cameras also offer nearly unlimited professional-quality connectivity for audio, lighting and video accessories. These cameras can generate industry-standard tone and color bars or take tone from the audio operator for an instantaneous setting of single-system levels to 2 or 4 channels. A separate mic can be attached to each camera for nat sound recording. The operator can instantly judge exposure and vary his focal length using the ENG style configuration. The reasons why a DSLR isn't suitable for reality work are actually too many to list!
The format that the camera records, and, often more importantly the media they record to, is a key factor for producers. There are several things owner-operators of cameras are up against. First, a network-commissioned unscripted show will not typically hire camera packages from one person. They will rent from a house that can provide matching cameras (6 - 24 cameras on a show aren't uncommon) with appropriate AKS packages and back-up facilities when the cameras go down or are otherwise broken during production. Owner-ops, no matter how well networked, cannot provide this and an experienced proco will not risk expensive days on an owner-operator package. The exception would be the known and trusted DP having a RED or 5dII that he brings for a day or two of box rental for shooting promos or show open work. But usually, the network just hires a separate company for this work without much consultation.
Commissioned unscripted shows must acquire and deliver using formats and recording media as mandated by the network. There are allowable ratios for mixing formats. Long-GOP can make-up a certain amount of total footage against master-quality or other intra-frame formats on high-quality media like P2 cards or, still preferably, HDCam or DVCProHD tape stock. It isn't the producer who chooses what is acceptable - it is the network that finally mandates what can and should be used. Many shows do use long-GOP HDV for all their cameras, but the Tiffany Net, primetime shows are done on 2/3" shoulder-mount cameras for the most part.
Format and recording media aside, these larger cameras also offer nearly unlimited professional-quality connectivity for audio, lighting and video accessories. These cameras can generate industry-standard tone and color bars or take tone from the audio operator for an instantaneous setting of single-system levels to 2 or 4 channels. A separate mic can be attached to each camera for nat sound recording. The operator can instantly judge exposure and vary his focal length using the ENG style configuration. The reasons why a DSLR isn't suitable for reality work are actually too many to list!
Cosimo Bullo
Veteran
Man is that the truth!
DCTBradJohnson
Active member
Haha... There is a reason reality tv is shot the way it is, on budget camcorders... mainly the audience and the conditions they want their story told in. We are talking people who watch Jersey Shore... Cheaters... Bad Girls Club... Survivor... Deadliest Catch... are people watching for breathtaking images... or cheap drama? Do you need twenty RED's to deliver that?
Barry_Green
Moderator
Don't know about the others, but Survivor is shot on (I think) PDW-700's, which, while not exactly F35's, they're still serious high-quality pro camcorders, and about $30k each. On the other hand, didn't someone say Deadliest Catch was shot on HDV? Both are major series, and those probably represent the full spectrum of cheap to expensive cameras being used on reality shows.
Have you priced any of the 2/3" shoulder-mount cameras a typical reality show shoots on? Added the Canon or Fujinon HD glass? These are $30k - $100k camera packages plus AKS. There is nothing cheap about producing a reality show - save for what they pay the talent (in Season 1, anyway). Compare the number of camera and audio operators, AC(s), field producers, PAs, loggers and office staff to a single camera show and you'll see that there is still a ton of labor in these unscripted programs. The most efficient unscripted formats would include PawnStars and Dirty Jobs. The nets love them because they can run three - five day eps and have a relatively small crew and talent payroll. That is to say that the cast is small in size.
Nothing in reality is budget, but the nets still find them to be a relative bargain when compared to today's $5M - $8M primetime single-camera eps.
pulpfiction007
Veteran
I hope the shows Brad mentioned aren't shot on $30,000 plus cameras - most of those shows look like ...t! Almost everything I've seen posted by anyone with any camera on this site and others looks at least 10x better. I don't know, maybe those shows producers make it look like garbage in post. Yes...I'm being hyperbolic, but man a lot of reality shows don't look all that great and the content isn't much better, they could shoot on cell phones and the audience could probably care less.
DCTBradJohnson
Active member
I was a little off base, I meant the more low res reality shows which definitely does not include Survivor. My main point was that you don't need 4K quality for this work. when the audience of cheaters/ Jersey Shore/ Deadliest Catch see the no light, grainy footage, they aren't disappointed because these shots deliver high drama, which is the point of the show. My girlfriend who I battle constantly for the clicker told me she loves those lowlight, grainy, no production quality shots because it makes it seem more gritty, secretive, and intensifies the feeling of uncertainty... the audience of a major motion picture demands a totally different experience. The high end ENG cameras are also cheaper to rent (at my local rental house anyway), and pay operator day rates on than a plethora of red packages and red operators as suggested in an earlier post. I apologize for putting my cart in front of my horse in my previous post.
Small form cameras are alive and well in reality TV programming.
Deadliest Catch shoots mainly on Sony Z5 and Z7 HDV cameras. But you have to understand they lose a lot of cameras in one season of shooting. Stormchasers also uses Z5 or Z7s. I've seen a Z5 used on Dirty Jobs. I've heard No Reservations is shot on HDV. Little People, Big World switched to JVC HD250s in the later seasons. I've seen a Sony EX3 on Ghost Adventures. I thought I saw an HVX200 on Man vs Food once.
I worked on one episode of Fantasia for Real and they shot with EX1s.
If you watch enough reality TV shows, you'll see a cameraman wander through a shot occasionally. A lot of them are holding small-form camcorders. Of course, a lot of them shoot with 2/3" cameras, too.
Deadliest Catch shoots mainly on Sony Z5 and Z7 HDV cameras. But you have to understand they lose a lot of cameras in one season of shooting. Stormchasers also uses Z5 or Z7s. I've seen a Z5 used on Dirty Jobs. I've heard No Reservations is shot on HDV. Little People, Big World switched to JVC HD250s in the later seasons. I've seen a Sony EX3 on Ghost Adventures. I thought I saw an HVX200 on Man vs Food once.
I worked on one episode of Fantasia for Real and they shot with EX1s.
If you watch enough reality TV shows, you'll see a cameraman wander through a shot occasionally. A lot of them are holding small-form camcorders. Of course, a lot of them shoot with 2/3" cameras, too.
It varies - I've done two series on Z7Us: One Big Happy Family and Real Estate Pros (Season 2). It is somewhat driven by the logistics of the show. If producers can make the case that they're cooped-up in passenger cars for 90% of the production (as they are in StormChasers), then the case for ZXX form-factor cameras is easier to make.
The vast majority of reality shows don't undergo much in the way of grading. The treatment is straight-from-the-camera and what you end up with is a further compressed version of what we saw on-set, which is often times HDCam, DVCProHD or HDV 1080i / 1080p. There aren't unscripted shows being aquired in 4K.
I defense of reality show production value, I will just say that most unscripted shows shoot 4 - 6 tapes per camera per day and the action is lightly choreographed at best. Unless the production is a tightly controlled, bordering-on-switched studio / sports truck show along the lines of Real World or Celebrity Rehab, there are rarely reliable facilities for monitoring what the operators are getting.
Survivor, the high watermark for unscripted, might be different, but the wireless video is so spotty, that it is often abandoned. Even basic coverage does suffer in many cases and editors must do what they can with what they've got. If you watch a reality scene playing out with four or six cameras dancing around each other in real time with almost no blocking, it is something to behold. Operators coming from the methods and disciplines of scripted production typically have a very tough time making the transition.
The vast majority of reality shows don't undergo much in the way of grading. The treatment is straight-from-the-camera and what you end up with is a further compressed version of what we saw on-set, which is often times HDCam, DVCProHD or HDV 1080i / 1080p. There aren't unscripted shows being aquired in 4K.
I defense of reality show production value, I will just say that most unscripted shows shoot 4 - 6 tapes per camera per day and the action is lightly choreographed at best. Unless the production is a tightly controlled, bordering-on-switched studio / sports truck show along the lines of Real World or Celebrity Rehab, there are rarely reliable facilities for monitoring what the operators are getting.
Survivor, the high watermark for unscripted, might be different, but the wireless video is so spotty, that it is often abandoned. Even basic coverage does suffer in many cases and editors must do what they can with what they've got. If you watch a reality scene playing out with four or six cameras dancing around each other in real time with almost no blocking, it is something to behold. Operators coming from the methods and disciplines of scripted production typically have a very tough time making the transition.