It seems that there is very little difference if not any, between that and a shotgun. I've done lots of tests. I find that with a shotgun I have to constantly reset the levels on my recorder, whenever the shotgun mic is pointed in a new direction, but with the hyper I can just set it once and it should get the job done for wherever it's pointed in that room. Is this true, or am I doing something wrong? As far as the sound goes it seems they are the same, but a shotgun is better, cause it can work at about two and half feet away, in some shots, as oppose to only two with the hyper. So is it worth it having both?
Was buying a hypercardioid worth it?
- Thread starter ironpony
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Rick R
Veteran
Difference? In a reflective room it's day and night different.
"is it worth it having both"? No.. if you only do exteriors. That said, you could use a lavs though.
Okay thanks. I don't quite know what you mean though. I'm kind of new to this. So it's worth having one if I am indoors, but I might as well get a lav then is what you're saying? Is the quality of the lav just as good as a hyper? What about having to change the levels so often everytime it's pointed at something different, like the shotgun, does a hyper have to have that too?
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Steve House
Veteran
You need to be equipped both for indoors and outdoors. Some situations call for a supercardioid or hypercardioid, some for a shotgun, some for a lav. You need all of them in your kit, choosing whatever works best for the location and shot immediately at hand..
Your problem with constantly resetting levels with the shotgun sounds like it was not being properly handled and aimed nor kept a consistent distance from the subject Imagine a circle about 8 inches in diameter centered on your talent's throat. The axis of a properly handled shotgun will always point into that circle no matter how the subject moves. That means you have to have a living and attentive boom operator, not just a mic stand, and he needs to be focused on exactly what the character is doing every second, constantly moving the mic as the character moves his head and anticipating what's coming next so he's ready to follow the action with the mic. The same is true with tight hypercardioids as well. Even wide cardioids. There isn't a mic made that you can set and forget, leaving it pointed in some random direction, and expect to get top notch results. Mother Nature's laws of acoustics simply do not allow it.
I advice you to look at the stickies in this part of the forum, since what you're asking about are quite fundamental ways in how types of mics are different from eachother, and how film sound is usually approached. I think you will greatly appreciate it - I know I did.
I strongly advice you to look at - and listen to - a short mic tutorial made by Ty Ford where he talks about and compares different mics and their usage. It can be found here, under "video"
https://public.me.com/tyreeford
I strongly advice you to look at - and listen to - a short mic tutorial made by Ty Ford where he talks about and compares different mics and their usage. It can be found here, under "video"
https://public.me.com/tyreeford
I already watched Ty Ford talk about it. But some of what he says is contradictory to things I've learned before it seems. Like he says a shotgun is bad in noisy environments. But I myself have found it good in such, because it rejects sounds from the sides. He also says that a lav is bad indoors, when I have been told to use it over a shotgun. Thanks for the input, but more information leads to more questions unfortunately. I also did not quite get some of his explanations on how a shotgun differs from a hyper.
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How a shotgun differs from a hyper, is that a shotgun has what is called an interference tubes - that's what makes them so long - that makes sound coming from the sides interact and to a certain extent cancel eachother out. This effect is the most pronounced in the higher register, and gets less and less effective the lower the frequency. The thing is, in a room, where walls and ceiling is making the sound bounce around, it loses some of it's ability to reject sound from the sides, and can actually end up sounding more "roomy".
A hyper has openings behind the capsule, and sound, being variations of pressure in the air, will then push the capsule from both sides. If the force that pushes it is equal from both sides, the capsule hardly moves, like two sumo wrestlers trying to push the other back. In reality, it's not that perfect, but it diminishes the power of sound waves from the side and rear. While it is also more effective at higher frequencies than lower, it can reduce lower frequencies to a much higher degree than a shotgun. This type of rejection also works good with the myriad of reflections indoors.
Many say to not use shotguns indoor, and while it's true that more often than not a hyper sounds better indoors, a shotgun can work if it's used well, and the room has very little reflections. My advice is to try and compare if you have the possibility.
Regarding your rape scene, that is a pretty tough nut to crack. I don't think you would have a problem with lavs getting to much bead squeaks etc, but since the actors move around a lot that might make it hard to put a lav in a position where it will not rub against something. I would look into planting a mic (this could be lavs) somewhere on the bed, or maybe on it's sides (for instance one on each side so you will cover both should the actor turn her head). If you really want to separate the voices from the other sounds, then resort to wild takes and ADR.
A hyper has openings behind the capsule, and sound, being variations of pressure in the air, will then push the capsule from both sides. If the force that pushes it is equal from both sides, the capsule hardly moves, like two sumo wrestlers trying to push the other back. In reality, it's not that perfect, but it diminishes the power of sound waves from the side and rear. While it is also more effective at higher frequencies than lower, it can reduce lower frequencies to a much higher degree than a shotgun. This type of rejection also works good with the myriad of reflections indoors.
Many say to not use shotguns indoor, and while it's true that more often than not a hyper sounds better indoors, a shotgun can work if it's used well, and the room has very little reflections. My advice is to try and compare if you have the possibility.
Regarding your rape scene, that is a pretty tough nut to crack. I don't think you would have a problem with lavs getting to much bead squeaks etc, but since the actors move around a lot that might make it hard to put a lav in a position where it will not rub against something. I would look into planting a mic (this could be lavs) somewhere on the bed, or maybe on it's sides (for instance one on each side so you will cover both should the actor turn her head). If you really want to separate the voices from the other sounds, then resort to wild takes and ADR.
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Thanks. I deleted the rape scene I wrote in my previous post, cause I thought it would get off track. But I decided not to get lavs cause according to some people, if the actors are moving a lot, the lavs will rub up against clothes or the bed materials and what not. I will use ADR, I just hate it, and want to know ways of avoiding it without having to use lavs in certain situations. So why use a hyper, instead of a supercardioid? Wouldn't a super be better since it rejects more rear noise?
ullanta
Veteran
Sorry, Ironpony, but are you really asking this? After all the discussion in your other threads? You have to have confidence in yourself and your ability to listen and decide, and stop focusing so much on other people's ideas and the idea of "magical equipment."
In your post, you yourself seem to be saying that you are getting better and more consistent results with the hyper. Why do you think the shotgun is better?
As we've said many times, the primary issue here is the skill level of the boom op. You can get or make a better boom op, or you can use the more forgiving hyper. You've said that you are basically handling three or four roles at once in the production, and working with inexperienced people. So, stop asking all the dedicated sound guys what kind of mic is better... they'll argue that ad infinitum, talking from the perspective of what a SKILLED operator can do with each... but that has nothing to do with you. You need to use the mic that gives YOU the best results. And that sounds like the most forgiving mic you can find.
Cheers,
Barry
ullanta
Veteran
What?!?
Steve House
Veteran
Not to put words into Ty's mouth but I don't believe he would have said shotguns aren't good in noisy environments. He would say they aren't good in REFLECTIVE environments where there's a lot of room slap mixing with the direct sound coming at the mic, which is a whole different kettle of fish than high noise levels.
How you would mic a rape scene depends on the camera blocking and coverage but my first thought would be to boom a hyper, or two, just out of shot.
Richard Crowley
Veteran
You seem to think a microphone is like a light. Just aim it and leave it. Unless your talent is playing a hostage tied in a chair, using the "set and forget" method of positioning and aiming a microphone is just asking for trouble. A highly directional microphone like a shotgun or hypercardioid requires careful (and usually constant) adjustment to keep it aimed at the source of interest (actor's mouth, typically). And if you have more than one person speaking in a shot, there is no practical alternative to having a talented boom operator with good headphones to monitor the track.
Doc Bernard
Indie Arms Member
Maybe even a close placed lav. People tend to think lavs are only for placing on people. And sometimes a lav set within close distance, but static, can work wonders.
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
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Lol I wrote about a rape scene I am shooting, on here, but then decided to delete it, right after I posted it cause I thought it would hijack the thread into something else. I deleted it too late though, as some users already saw it, and responded.
How many feet in distance do I have on a lav?
Doc Bernard
Indie Arms Member
1', maybe 1'6" tops. Anything outside that, no better than a boom mic. But you will be able to have tighter framing. Lavs can hide anywhere. But use an omni mic.
Steve House
Veteran
I'm more conservative than Doc, I guess. Lav's are designed to be worked about 6 inches from the speaker's mouth. You may be able to get away with a more relaxed positioning in some cases but not very often.
Well then I won't use lavs. Some scenes I have to use a mic boom stand though, cause I don't have a soundman all the time. But I try to have my actors sit in those scenes, or stand still and be stationary. But I find that a cardioid mic is worth more having than a lav maybe. More uses out of them. So I'll keep it I think.
Steve House
Veteran
You keep talking about using a cardioid mic for dialog. Note that a cardioid and a hypercadioid or supercardioid are NOT the same thing nor are they equivalent to each other, they're NOT interchangeable. Booming for dialog needs more directionality and more "reach" than you get with a plain cardioid. A cardioid needs to be about 8 to 12 inches from the speaker. A hyper- or super- can relax that distance to somewhere in the order of 18 to 22 inches. The downside is they MUST be accurately aimed; you really can't just point the mic, any mic, vaguely in the general direction of the talent and expect consistently good results. You wouldn't dream of doing that with the camera and mics are just as demanding.
If you can't have someone handling sound all the time, team up with someone more reliable and only schedule your shoots when you can count on their being there. If your sound-person is a flake, it's your fault for bringing them on-board in the first place. Get rid of them and find someone else. Stop trusting to luck and refuse to accept second rate, period.